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From: Aragorn on 29 May 2010 06:53
On Saturday 29 May 2010 11:25 in comp.os.linux.hardware, somebody
identifying as felmon wrote...

> On Fri, 28 May 2010 13:36:02 +0000, General Schvantzkoph wrote:
>
>>> the hardware techie at a local college said something about the
>>> newer mobos using pci-16. not sure what he meant or I may have
>>> misunderstood. his point was that the newer pci spec may not be
>>> compatible with older cards.
>>
>> That's PCI express 16. PCI is the old parallel interface, PCI Express
>> is the modern serial interface, current motherboards support both.
>> The slots are completely different, it's impossible to plug an old
>> PCI card into a PCI Express slot so you don't have to worry about
>> that.
>
> ah, ok. I was wondering what he meant. it's frustrating talking to
> these guys sometimes, I often don't know if I am confused or they are
> confused! I kept saying that there are pci-e slots but the cards in
> question are pci and I have four pci slots available but then this
> fellow threw in this "pci 16" business.

And to add more confusion, there's also PCI-X, which is often wrongfully
referred to as PCI Express. PCI-X(tended) is just a faster,
64-bit-capable version of PCI.

So there are three different PCI types, of which the first two mentioned
here below are (one-way) compatible...:

- PCI = parallel, 32-bit (66/33 MHz)
- PCI-X = parallel, 32-/64-bit (133/100 MHz) (backwards compatible with
PCI 2.x)
- PCIe = serial, 64-/32-bit, in several speeds, usually (but not always)
corresponding to the number of "lanes"; shorter adapter cards which
require less lanes can be plugged into motherboard slots with more
lanes, and some cards have a physical size which corresponds to a
longer slot but with an actual connector that has fewer lanes, and so
the requirements for such adapter cards will mention that the longer
slot is needed (e.g. a card which uses a 4-lane connector but takes up
the space of a card that requires an 8-lane connector)

>> One more thing, are you using the latest BIOS?. If not I'd update the
>> BIOS before I gave up on this motherboard.
>
> alright. I will consider this. haven't updated a BIOS in years: do you
> still need to somehow boot to DOS?

That is commonly required for a legacy AT BIOS, yes, although for most
BIOS chips this is now commonly the DOS component of Windows 98 - SE, I
think - and without that any memory managers or TSRs are loaded. Given
the unreliability of DOS itself and instability of the processor's real
mode for such a critical operation, it is a quite bizarre but
apparently very stubborn legacy... :-/

A rare few computer motherboard vendors support CoreBoot or another EFI
implementation, which is then commonly flashed from within GNU/Linux or
another similar operating system - CoreBoot is what used to be called
LinuxBIOS. Since it already switches the processor into protected mode
after only about 10 micro-operations and sets up things from there
using the processor cache as temporary RAM - as there are no pagetables
set up yet at that stage - it also requires a protected mode version of
the bootloader[1] and a modified kernel[2] with protected mode
bootstrapping code. Modern Apple computers based upon the Intel x86
architecture feature EFI firmware, but it's still pretty uncommon on
non-Apple machines.


[1] ELILO or a special version of GRUB; the bootloader is then
considered an extension to the BIOS firmware.

[2] All assuming we are talking of the x86 platform, of course. SPARC,
PPC, MIPS et al don't have a real mode so they always require a
specialized bootloader and have kernels which are always designed
for the machine-specific bootstrap. x86 is however plagued by the
legacy thing and so mainstream kernels and bootloaders are generally
designed for the legacy principles.

--
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)
From: General Schvantzkoph on 29 May 2010 07:42
On Sat, 29 May 2010 04:25:22 -0500, felmon wrote:

> On Fri, 28 May 2010 13:36:02 +0000, General Schvantzkoph wrote:
>
>>> the hardware techie at a local college said something about the newer
>>> mobos using pci-16. not sure what he meant or I may have
>>> misunderstood. his point was that the newer pci spec may not be
>>> compatible with older cards.
>>
>> That's PCI express 16. PCI is the old parallel interface, PCI Express
>> is the modern serial interface, current motherboards support both. The
>> slots are completely different, it's impossible to plug an old PCI card
>> into a PCI Express slot so you don't have to worry about that.
>
> ah, ok. I was wondering what he meant. it's frustrating talking to these
> guys sometimes, I often don't know if I am confused or they are
> confused! I kept saying that there are pci-e slots but the cards in
> question are pci and I have four pci slots available but then this
> fellow threw in this "pci 16" business.
>
> anyway.
>
>>> frankly, I am pretty close to the end of the road. time is precious. I
>>> think I'll be asking soon for recommendations for a good mobo. I
>>> thought I was on safe ground with Intel, no-brainer.
>>>
>>> Felmon
>>
>> One more thing, are you using the latest BIOS?. If not I'd update the
>> BIOS before I gave up on this motherboard.
>
> alright. I will consider this. haven't updated a BIOS in years: do you
> still need to somehow boot to DOS?

You will have to go to the board's website to find out how to do it. The
old way was to do it from DOS. I have one motherboard that has the
flashing routine built into the BIOS, all you have to do is put the
update file on a USB key (very nice). I also have an HP Laptop that can
only be updated from Windows Vista (not nice at all).
From: Trevor Hemsley on 29 May 2010 08:01
On Sat, 29 May 2010 09:25:22 UTC in comp.os.linux.hardware, felmon
<nemo(a)nowhere.INVALID> wrote:

> I will consider this. haven't updated a BIOS in years: do you
> still need to somehow boot to DOS?

Intel supply their BIOS updates on an ISO image so you can burn a CD and then
boot it. However, nothing in the release notes look like your problem and
there's only been one update since the board was released in Feb this year.

http://www.intel.com/Products/Desktop/Motherboards/DP43BF/DP43BF-overview.htm

It's on the Support tab of that web page.

Did you post an lspci output already in this thread?

--
Trevor Hemsley, Brighton, UK
Trevor dot Hemsley at ntlworld dot com
From: felmon on 29 May 2010 15:49
On Sat, 29 May 2010 07:01:17 -0500, Trevor Hemsley wrote:


> Did you post an lspci output already in this thread?

no, I didn't; here it is below. this time I have the Hauppauge WinTV HVR
1600 installed but there's no difference I have detected when the older
WinTV card is installed.

hope this will be readable.

the guys at the shop I bought it from will take it back after testing
even though I am late. since I've bought from them over the yrs, they may
even excuse a re-stocking fee.

thanks for checking on the Intel site for me; I had looked before and
found nothing. (I still don't see the reference you mentioned to an
'update' but it's a moot point anyway.)

Felmon

00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 4 Series Chipset DRAM Controller
(rev 03)
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0
Capabilities: <access denied>

00:01.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 4 Series Chipset PCI Express Root
Port (rev 03) (prog-if 00 [Normal decode])
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0
Bus: primary=00, secondary=01, subordinate=01, sec-latency=0
I/O behind bridge: 0000e000-0000efff
Memory behind bridge: d0000000-e30fffff
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: pcieport

00:1a.0 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) USB UHCI
Controller #4 (prog-if 00 [UHCI])
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: bus master, medium devsel, latency 0, IRQ 16
I/O ports at f0c0 [size=32]
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: uhci_hcd

00:1a.1 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) USB UHCI
Controller #5 (prog-if 00 [UHCI])
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: bus master, medium devsel, latency 0, IRQ 21
I/O ports at f0a0 [size=32]
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: uhci_hcd

00:1a.2 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) USB UHCI
Controller #6 (prog-if 00 [UHCI])
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: bus master, medium devsel, latency 0, IRQ 18
I/O ports at f080 [size=32]
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: uhci_hcd

00:1a.7 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) USB2
EHCI Controller #2 (prog-if 20 [EHCI])
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: bus master, medium devsel, latency 0, IRQ 18
Memory at e3106000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=1K]
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: ehci_hcd

00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) HD Audio
Controller
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 22
Memory at e3100000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=16K]
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: HDA Intel

00:1c.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) PCI Express
Root Port 1 (prog-if 00 [Normal decode])
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0
Bus: primary=00, secondary=02, subordinate=02, sec-latency=0
I/O behind bridge: 0000d000-0000dfff
Memory behind bridge: e8100000-e81fffff
Prefetchable memory behind bridge:
0000000080000000-00000000801fffff
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: pcieport

00:1c.1 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) PCI Express
Port 2 (prog-if 00 [Normal decode])
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0
Bus: primary=00, secondary=03, subordinate=03, sec-latency=0
I/O behind bridge: 00002000-00002fff
Memory behind bridge: 80200000-803fffff
Prefetchable memory behind bridge:
0000000080400000-00000000805fffff
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: pcieport

00:1c.2 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) PCI Express
Root Port 3 (prog-if 00 [Normal decode])
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0
Bus: primary=00, secondary=04, subordinate=04, sec-latency=0
I/O behind bridge: 00003000-00003fff
Memory behind bridge: 80600000-807fffff
Prefetchable memory behind bridge:
0000000080800000-00000000809fffff
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: pcieport

00:1c.3 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) PCI Express
Root Port 4 (prog-if 00 [Normal decode])
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0
Bus: primary=00, secondary=05, subordinate=05, sec-latency=0
I/O behind bridge: 00004000-00004fff
Memory behind bridge: 80a00000-80bfffff
Prefetchable memory behind bridge:
0000000080c00000-0000000080dfffff
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: pcieport

00:1c.4 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) PCI Express
Root Port 5 (prog-if 00 [Normal decode])
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0
Bus: primary=00, secondary=06, subordinate=06, sec-latency=0
I/O behind bridge: 00005000-00005fff
Memory behind bridge: 80e00000-80ffffff
Prefetchable memory behind bridge:
0000000081000000-00000000811fffff
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: pcieport

00:1c.5 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) PCI Express
Root Port 6 (prog-if 00 [Normal decode])
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0
Bus: primary=00, secondary=07, subordinate=07, sec-latency=0
I/O behind bridge: 00006000-00006fff
Memory behind bridge: e8000000-e80fffff
Prefetchable memory behind bridge:
0000000081200000-00000000813fffff
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: pcieport

00:1d.0 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) USB UHCI
Controller #1 (prog-if 00 [UHCI])
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: bus master, medium devsel, latency 0, IRQ 23
I/O ports at f060 [size=32]
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: uhci_hcd

00:1d.1 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) USB UHCI
Controller #2 (prog-if 00 [UHCI])
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: bus master, medium devsel, latency 0, IRQ 19
I/O ports at f040 [size=32]
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: uhci_hcd

00:1d.2 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) USB UHCI
Controller #3 (prog-if 00 [UHCI])
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: bus master, medium devsel, latency 0, IRQ 18
I/O ports at f020 [size=32]
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: uhci_hcd

00:1d.7 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) USB2
EHCI Controller #1 (prog-if 20 [EHCI])
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: bus master, medium devsel, latency 0, IRQ 23
Memory at e3105000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=1K]
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: ehci_hcd

00:1e.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801 PCI Bridge (rev 90) (prog-if
01 [Subtractive decode])
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0
Bus: primary=00, secondary=20, subordinate=08, sec-latency=8
Memory behind bridge: e4000000-e7ffffff
Capabilities: <access denied>

00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801JIB (ICH10) LPC Interface
Controller
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: bus master, medium devsel, latency 0
Capabilities: <access denied>

00:1f.2 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) 4 port
SATA IDE Controller #1 (prog-if 8f [Master SecP SecO PriP PriO])
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: bus master, 66MHz, medium devsel, latency 0, IRQ 19
I/O ports at f190 [size=8]
I/O ports at f180 [size=4]
I/O ports at f170 [size=8]
I/O ports at f160 [size=4]
I/O ports at f150 [size=16]
I/O ports at f140 [size=16]
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: ata_piix

00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) SMBus Controller
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: medium devsel, IRQ 18
Memory at e3104000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=256]
I/O ports at f000 [size=32]
Kernel driver in use: i801_smbus

00:1f.5 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 Family) 2 port
SATA IDE Controller #2 (prog-if 85 [Master SecO PriO])
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: bus master, 66MHz, medium devsel, latency 0, IRQ 19
I/O ports at f130 [size=8]
I/O ports at f120 [size=4]
I/O ports at f110 [size=8]
I/O ports at f100 [size=4]
I/O ports at f0f0 [size=16]
I/O ports at f0e0 [size=16]
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: ata_piix

01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation G98 [GeForce 8400
GS] (rev a1) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller])
Subsystem: eVga.com. Corp. Device c738
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 16
Memory at e2000000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=16M]
Memory at d0000000 (64-bit, prefetchable) [size=256M]
Memory at e0000000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=32M]
I/O ports at e000 [size=128]
[virtual] Expansion ROM at e3000000 [disabled] [size=128K]
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: nvidia

02:00.0 IDE interface: Marvell Technology Group Ltd. 88SE6101 single-port
PATA133 interface (rev b2) (prog-if 8f [Master SecP SecO PriP PriO])
Subsystem: Marvell Technology Group Ltd. 88SE6101 single-port
PATA133 interface
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 16
I/O ports at d040 [size=8]
I/O ports at d030 [size=4]
I/O ports at d020 [size=8]
I/O ports at d010 [size=4]
I/O ports at d000 [size=16]
Memory at e8100000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=512]
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: pata_marvell

07:00.0 Ethernet controller: Broadcom Corporation NetLink BCM57788
Gigabit Ethernet PCIe (rev 01)
Subsystem: Intel Corporation Device 0029
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 31
Memory at e8000000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=64K]
Capabilities: <access denied>
Kernel driver in use: tg3

From: felmon on 29 May 2010 15:52
On Sat, 29 May 2010 11:42:12 +0000, General Schvantzkoph wrote:

> On Sat, 29 May 2010 04:25:22 -0500, felmon wrote:
>
>> alright. I will consider this. haven't updated a BIOS in years: do you
>> still need to somehow boot to DOS?
>
> You will have to go to the board's website to find out how to do it. The
> old way was to do it from DOS. I have one motherboard that has the
> flashing routine built into the BIOS, all you have to do is put the
> update file on a USB key (very nice). I also have an HP Laptop that can
> only be updated from Windows Vista (not nice at all).

it's a moot point as there is no BIOS update available.

at this point it looks pretty clear I'm returning this board; I have
already spoken to the salesperson at the shop - shouldn't be a problem.

Felmon
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