"Exposing to the right" is over exposed, what now?
in [Photoshop]
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From: Steven Redgate on 14 Oct 2009 08:10 > If you don't want any part of the scene to clip, then > shoot the sunrize ETTR. It is *absolutely* necessary to > post process, where you set the exposure for whatever > effect you like. ETTR does *not* cause washed out > colors (inappropriate post processing might though). By "washed out" I mean the image is brighter than what I saw when I took the picture and to get the image to represent what I saw I need to darken the image. By either reducing exposure or some other method in post. > >When I shot slide film I would spot meter > >on an area that I knew what the meter should read and set exposure > >accordingly, and in digital this also yields a good looking sunrise. > >The histogram, however, is not as far to the right as it could be. > > How can you spot meter on an area that "I knew what the > meter would read"??? I don't understand what you mean > by that statement. I spot meter on something that, from experience, I know what I want the light meter to indicate for exposure. For example (for film, no ETTR), a gray cloud I set exposure so the meter reads in the middle of the exposure display, a white cloud plus 1 or 2 stops, a black cloud minus 1 or 2 stops. > If the histogram is not as far to the right as it could > be your image does not have as wide a dynamic range as > the camera is capable of recording. The shadow areas > will have more noise than if it were exposed per ETTR. > If you want any specific *final* tone levels, set it > that way in post processing. In essence, in post > processing drop the "exposure" to make the editor's > histogram show what you think the camera's should have > shown absent ETTR adjustments. Do you specifically reduce the exposure in post or some other method? There are exposure sliders in ACR and Lightroom, as well as CS4. Porte
From: Floyd L. Davidson on 14 Oct 2009 08:45 Steven Redgate <stevered3(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> If you don't want any part of the scene to clip, then >> shoot the sunrize ETTR. �It is *absolutely* necessary to >> post process, where you set the exposure for whatever >> effect you like. �ETTR does *not* cause washed out >> colors (inappropriate post processing might though). > >By "washed out" I mean the image is brighter than what I saw when I >took the picture and to get the image to represent what I saw I need >to darken the image. By either reducing exposure or some other method >in post. You are aware that ETTR is a two part process, part one being boost the exposure to maximum possible, and part two is to later reduce it to whatever it is that makes your heart beat fast enough. You *have* to do both. >> >When I shot slide film I would spot meter >> >on an area that I knew what the meter should read and set exposure >> >accordingly, and in digital this also yields a good looking sunrise. >> >The histogram, however, is not as far to the right as it could be. >> >> How can you spot meter on an area that "I knew what the >> meter would read"??? �I don't understand what you mean >> by that statement. > >I spot meter on something that, from experience, I know what I want >the light meter to indicate for exposure. For example (for film, no >ETTR), a gray cloud I set exposure so the meter reads in the middle of >the exposure display, a white cloud plus 1 or 2 stops, a black cloud >minus 1 or 2 stops. So you take wild guesses at what shade various parts of the scene are! (Isn't the whole idea of a meter supposed to be to get away from these wild guesses about exposure??? :-) Sarcasm aside (because certainly with film that was an almost required method), you don't need to guess any more. Digital cameras provide tools that will positively show you where your image is in terms of the camera's dynamic range capability. That's what a histogram does. >> If the histogram is not as far to the right as it could >> be your image does not have as wide a dynamic range as >> the camera is capable of recording. �The shadow areas >> will have more noise than if it were exposed per ETTR. >> If you want any specific *final* tone levels, set it >> that way in post processing. �In essence, in post >> processing drop the "exposure" to make the editor's >> histogram show what you think the camera's should have >> shown absent ETTR adjustments. > >Do you specifically reduce the exposure in post or some other method? >There are exposure sliders in ACR and Lightroom, as well as CS4. Yes, in post processing. In the camera, try to set exposure as high as is possible. The closer to clipping the better (indeed, clipping of some types of highlights might be perfectly okay). The camera is essentially going to record the same amount of noise regardless of your exposure settings, so increasing exposure increases the Signal-To-Noise-Ratio. In post processing reduce exposure (which reduces noise at the same amount it does the highlights) to give the desired brightness. -- Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd(a)apaflo.com
From: Bob Larter on 14 Oct 2009 09:50 Steven Redgate wrote: >> If you don't want any part of the scene to clip, then >> shoot the sunrize ETTR. It is *absolutely* necessary to >> post process, where you set the exposure for whatever >> effect you like. ETTR does *not* cause washed out >> colors (inappropriate post processing might though). > > By "washed out" I mean the image is brighter than what I saw when I > took the picture and to get the image to represent what I saw I need > to darken the image. By either reducing exposure or some other method > in post. Correct. You can reduce the exposure slider, or you can move the black level on the tone curve to the left hand side of the histogram (which is what I do), which retains the highlights. -- W . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
From: Porte Rouge on 14 Oct 2009 10:38 > You are aware that ETTR is a two part process, part one > being boost the exposure to maximum possible, and part > two is to later reduce it to whatever it is that makes > your heart beat fast enough. > > You *have* to do both. > Yes, I understand. My question is, after ETTR what exactly do you yourself do in post processing. Do you adjust exposure, black point, or something else? > >> >When I shot slide film I would spot meter > >> >on an area that I knew what the meter should read and set exposure > >> >accordingly, and in digital this also yields a good looking sunrise. > >> >The histogram, however, is not as far to the right as it could be. > > >> How can you spot meter on an area that "I knew what the > >> meter would read"??? I don't understand what you mean > >> by that statement. > > >I spot meter on something that, from experience, I know what I want > >the light meter to indicate for exposure. For example (for film, no > >ETTR), a gray cloud I set exposure so the meter reads in the middle of > >the exposure display, a white cloud plus 1 or 2 stops, a black cloud > >minus 1 or 2 stops. > > So you take wild guesses at what shade various parts of the > scene are! (Isn't the whole idea of a meter supposed to be > to get away from these wild guesses about exposure??? :-) > It's not really a wild guess. It's like the earlier post about the snow bank. I was taught and learned that if I spot metered the snow and set exposure so the exposure display read dead center, the snow would be gray in the photo. If I use 1 or 2 stops more exposure it will be whiter. If I spot meter the black dog and the exposure meter is centered the dog will be gray, so I use less exposure and it will be darker. Porte
From: Floyd L. Davidson on 14 Oct 2009 11:48
Porte Rouge <porterougeman(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> You are aware that ETTR is a two part process, part one >> being boost the exposure to maximum possible, and part >> two is to later reduce it to whatever it is that makes >> your heart beat fast enough. >> >> You *have* to do both. > >Yes, I understand. My question is, after ETTR what exactly do you >yourself do in post processing. Do you adjust exposure, black point, >or something else? "After ETTR" means it follows adjusting *exposure* in post processing. Incidentally, black point has nothing to do with ETTR or exposure. For most images if gamma is set correctly there is no need to move the black point up. Generally I click on "Auto" for black point, and if it moves the curve away from the lower right corner I reset it and review the gamma settings to make sure I've got that right. Some times it does work out that it helps to move the black point, but not often. I adjust exposure, white balance, gamma and linearity, black point, color saturation and potentially things like noise reduction and certain lens specific corrections all with the raw converter. An image editor is used for resizing, cropping, retouching, USM, borders, watermarks, etc. >> >> >When I shot slide film I would spot meter >> >> >on an area that I knew what the meter should read and set exposure >> >> >accordingly, and in digital this also yields a good looking sunrise. >> >> >The histogram, however, is not as far to the right as it could be. >> >> >> How can you spot meter on an area that "I knew what the >> >> meter would read"??? �I don't understand what you mean >> >> by that statement. >> >> >I spot meter on something that, from experience, I know what I want >> >the light meter to indicate for exposure. For example (for film, no >> >ETTR), a gray cloud I set exposure so the meter reads in the middle of >> >the exposure display, a white cloud plus 1 or 2 stops, a black cloud >> >minus 1 or 2 stops. >> >> So you take wild guesses at what shade various parts of the >> scene are! �(Isn't the whole idea of a meter supposed to be >> to get away from these wild guesses about exposure??? :-) >> > >It's not really a wild guess. It's like the earlier post about the >snow bank. I was taught and learned that if I spot metered the snow >and set exposure so the exposure display read dead center, the snow >would be gray in the photo. If I use 1 or 2 stops more exposure it >will be whiter. So you take a wild guess at 1 or 2 stops more! Even with film and no histograms most accomplished photographers attempted to get within 1/2 a stop. Today, with digital and histograms, it is entirely possible to be within 1/3rd of a stop. This may or may not be obvious (I live 300+ miles north of the Arctic Circle); but do realize that I literally take thousands of images that include snow! It really does require paying attention before hand if you want detail in the snow, or if it can just be "white" or if it can be blown out totally. (There is this false claim that Eskimos have 100 words for snow, which they don't... but skiers do and so do photographers! :-) And all of that has to be balanced against the brightness level for people's faces, black dogs, and white bears. >If I spot meter the black dog and the exposure meter >is centered the dog will be gray, so I use less exposure and it will >be darker. You guess at how much darker it should be... What a spot meter can show you (and a histogram can show even more easily), is how much of a range you have between the dog and whatever else there is. If it happens to be a snow bank, it might well be 7 or 8 stops difference and arbitarily adjusting the dog to something that "will be darker" will mean that you lose the texture of the snow. The trick is realizing that the dog is going to be off scale, so getting texture on both the snow and the dog means putting the snow right at the maximum. Then in post processing the brightness is adjusted to maintain the snow at just under maximum white while contrast is adjusted to bring the texture on the dog out of the black. It depends on the dynamic range of your camera of course, but the closer one puts the snow to maximum white the less noise will show up on the texture of the dog. -- Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd(a)apaflo.com |