From: Tom Shelton on
Mayayana brought next idea :
>> I was referring to people
>> here. People writing Windows software.
>
>> Funny, that's what I do - and have done almost my
>> whole career
>
> You've said in the past that you mainly work
> server-side. .Net server-side makes sense. By
> Windows software I mean "Desktop" software.
> You know that. Yet you repeatedly conflate the
> two.
>

Currently, I mainly do middle tier work. It's neither desktop, nor
server. I write the logic and the data access layers that support the
front end applications - essentially, the team I work with writes the
parts that do the heavy lifting and others put pretty wrappers around
that.

Yes I have done server work... But, I've done plenty of desktop apps
as well - many of the servers needed desktop front ends you know :)

>> right now the hot market is mobile devices - something
>> which VB.CLASSIC
>> is a complete fail at.
>>
>> C# at least can be used on both MS based phones and iPhones. Yes,
>> iPhones. While not officially supported by apple, Novel has a native
>> compiler and development tools for mono on the iPhone.
>>
>> Android, which is another place where there is a lot of growing
>> interest. But of course, you have to use Java and C for that... I
>> just set up a linux based VM for android development :)
>>
>> Never mind as long as you stick with VB.CLASSIC you will be locked out
>> of almost ALL of the hot new environments. Windows apps are becoming
>> very passe my friend... And while .NET isn't in all of the
>> environments, at least it's in some - and those of use that don't
>> shackle our selves to a single language and development paradigm have a
>> good chance of weathering the comming shift...
>
> You talk about C# on iPhone, Ruby, Java. You
> used the phrase "hot new" twice. Phone apps
> are "hot new" and PC software is "passe"...
>

Read it again - I'm talking about trends. Notice the wording. I
didn't say it is, I said it's becomming... Big difference.

> So you're hanging around a VB group fuming that
> people should do *anything* but use VB. ?? This is
> becoming a strange obsession with you.
>

That was not my point - and you know that. You know my points are
accurate, so you have no recourse but to twist words.

> I wish you well with your Android plans. It doesn't
> interest me. I see a dubious shareware-type market,
> aimed at a moving target, mainly dealing in things
> that people don't need and won't pay for.

Hmmm... If people weren't paying for the apps, then they wouldn't be
being developed. duh. Basic supply and demand.

> To a great
> extent it involves selling digital pacifiers to distracted
> yuppies who are lost in a hypnotic swoon of manic
> techno-depravity, helplessly diddling their smart-phones.
> That's no way to make a living.

In this industry change happens. You can flow with it or you can
ignore it and hope it doesn't crush you as it passes. Look at MS
currently. They are dying the death of a thousand little cuts.

And when the time comes, I'll jump ship to to a new platform/language.
I've done it before...

--
Tom Shelton


From: Mayayana on
| > You talk about C# on iPhone, Ruby, Java. You
| > used the phrase "hot new" twice. Phone apps
| > are "hot new" and PC software is "passe"...
| >
| > That was not my point - and you know that.
| > You know my points are
| > accurate, so you have no recourse but to twist words.

I'm quoting you.

|
| Read it again - I'm talking about trends. Notice the wording. I
| didn't say it is, I said it's becomming... Big difference.
|
I read it. You think that ISV business in the
future will be mainly on mobile? Is that a fair
interpretation? You felt I was twisting your
words by putting the issue in the present? You
don't think we're there quite yet? So VB may be
a good choice right now, but before long it will be
pretty much irrelevant?

I still have the same response. So what? I don't
care. Go catch your boat to the new world of
mobile. Good luck.
Personally I think it's a flash in the pan, and a
rather unattractive flash at that. I'm not interested
no matter how "hot" it gets. But if you depend on
this decision for your livelihood then the landscape
may look different to you.

I'm not an expert on the markets. (I don't know
who could be, given that a lot of well-researched
new products fail to hit the mark.) But the mobile
craze looks a lot like the shareware craze to me.
First, they're both crazes. People are having fun with
a new medium. (I remember once years ago when
someone sent me a picture of his Start Menu, with 5 or
6 startup manager programs on it. He was so proud
of his collection. :)

| Hmmm... If people weren't paying for the apps, then they wouldn't be
| being developed. duh. Basic supply and demand.

Supply and demand is about pricing. Plenty of people
develop products that fail and lose money. (hint: Kin.
Azure. Hailstorm. SPOT. Active Desktop. Edsel. Bing.)
I think you might be letting your feelings take your intellect
for a ride here.

Amidst the clamor I've seen links like this about the
difficulty in making money on iPhone:

http://www.ipodnn.com/articles/09/10/07/initial.success.stories.overhyped/

That sounds a lot like shareware to me. A lot of
people making cheap or free software, hoping to get
a foot in the door. A few people did. (Paint Shop Pro,
for instance.) Most people didn't. And then things
moved on. People *were not*, for the most part,
paying for the apps. But it was possible for small
companies or individuals to give the shareware
business a try with little startup cost, so many did.

| And when the time comes, I'll jump ship to to a new platform/language.
| I've done it before...
|
I hope you don't jump from the Titanic.Net onto
a boat that's "up the creek without a paddle". :)


From: Mayayana on

| : So you're hanging around a VB group fuming that
| : people should do *anything* but use VB. ?? This is
| : becoming a strange obsession with you.
| :
|
| FINALLY!!! I have been saying this for months!! Now someone else sees
it.
|
| He can't help himself Maya. It's almost like he regrets the path he's
| chosen,

Maybe we're all a bit that way. Everyone wants
to feel they've made the right decisions. And cloud
vs Desktop does sometimes seem to be a battle
where only one can win...at least when the marketers
get talking.

On the other hand, Mr. Ballmer clearly hopes to
transcend that dilemma for himself: With MS Office
online one has to buy a Windows PC and MS Office
in order to use the cloud version. It's what he calls
software *and* service, as opposed to SaaS -- "Get
two for the price of two, for a limited time only,
while supplies last!"


From: Tom Shelton on
Mayayana submitted this idea :
>>> So you're hanging around a VB group fuming that
>>> people should do *anything* but use VB. ?? This is
>>> becoming a strange obsession with you.
>>>
>>
>> FINALLY!!! I have been saying this for months!! Now someone else sees it.
>>
>> He can't help himself Maya. It's almost like he regrets the path he's
>> chosen,
>
> Maybe we're all a bit that way. Everyone wants
> to feel they've made the right decisions.

I in no way regret any of the tech choices I've made. My only career
regrets are that so far, I've lacked the courage to strike out on my
own and have remaind a wage slave (farily high paid though it maybe).
It's hard to make that leap when you have 7 kids and a mortgage on a
105 year old farm house :) Still, I feel the day is comming in the not
to distant future - I'm getting too old and cantankerous to deal with a
boss for much longer :)

> And cloud
> vs Desktop does sometimes seem to be a battle
> where only one can win...at least when the marketers
> get talking.
>

Personally, I think "Cloud Computing" will ultimately meet the same
fate as "Network Computing" did in the 90's.

I think a more reasonable approach is somewhere more in the middle -
especially with some of the new form factors and computing paradigms
that they are bringing with them (slates, tablets, and other mobile
devices).

> On the other hand, Mr. Ballmer clearly hopes to
> transcend that dilemma for himself: With MS Office
> online one has to buy a Windows PC and MS Office
> in order to use the cloud version.

You can actaully use word, excel, powerpoint, and one note web apps for
free.

--
Tom Shelton


From: Mayayana on
| My only career
| regrets are that so far, I've lacked the courage to strike out on my
| own and have remaind a wage slave (farily high paid though it maybe).
| It's hard to make that leap when you have 7 kids and a mortgage on a
| 105 year old farm house :) Still, I feel the day is comming in the not
| to distant future - I'm getting too old and cantankerous to deal with a
| boss for much longer :)
|

I've been self-employed for most of my
adult life. And I've never really had a real
9-5 job for any length of time. I'd find that
very hard to do.
With my own business I have a direct relationship
with people and no one customer is important
enough to force my hand. It's difficult to avoid
uncomfortable compromise when the stakes are
one's entire livelihood. (Being forced to work too
many hours, do unethical things, etc.) Though I
have seen a lot of people for whom self-employment
was a disaster. It only works for people who are
self-motivated.

| You can actaully use word, excel, powerpoint, and one note web apps for
| free.
|

Yes. But I thought you had to have the installed
version in order to do that. ?