From: Christian Winter on
ccc31807 wrote:
> Still, big companies were once small companies.
> Speaking of which, I seem to recall that Yahoo about ten years ago
> migrated a large body of code from Perl to Java, and BlackBoard is now
> in the process of replacing a bunch of Perl code with Java. Is there
> some sort of law that says that small companies use stuff that gets
> things going quickly (e.g., Perl) and when they grow the migrate to
> stuff that everyone else uses (e.g., Java)?

It's probably a question of a number of small tools that get the job
done growing into a big framework which needs more and more
direct interaction from users and has to be maintained by
a growing number of developers. This migration from small tools
to big 'solutions' has always been going on, be it from perl
or shell scripts, tcl, awk, whatever was available on the system.
That those scripting languages, which all lack in specific topics,
e.g. visual GUI design, IDE's with source code management,
threading, hard time requirements etc., are seldom choosen for
big projects is only natural. This doesn't harm those languages,
as they are still often the best means to tackle specific problems.
And if you take a close look you'll find that the small stuff that
gets things going quickly grows back as fast as it is replaced.

From: Charlton Wilbur on
>>>>> "cc" == ccc31807 <cartercc(a)> writes:

cc> True, but there's a world of difference between an argument
cc> based on logic and some sort of evidence that can at least pass
cc> for empirical, and an argument based on illogic and made up
cc> 'facts'.

Yes, and language and platform advocacy, especially the sort that
results in conclusions like, "we'll all be using .NET exclusively by
2020," is almost entirely the latter.


Charlton Wilbur
From: Sherm Pendley on
ccc31807 <cartercc(a)> writes:

> I interview for jobs occasionally, and it's typical to be told, "If
> you work here, you will use X." Would I not be a 'real programmer' if
> I accepted a position under these conditions and wrote only in X?

Like I said - real programmers will learn and use whatever is required.
Sometimes those requirements are driven by technical constraints; more
often, it's the result of a boss saying "use X."

The wannabe programmer would refuse that job on the basis that he's a
"Y programmer" and won't use anything else. Or, given the current state
of the economy, he'd take the job and then whine and moan endlessly
about how much X sucks.

From: Sherm Pendley on
Ben Morrow <ben(a)> writes:

> Quoth Sherm Pendley <spamtrap(a)>:
>> ccc31807 <cartercc(a)> writes:
>> > On Dec 22, 4:41�pm, Charlton Wilbur <cwil...(a)> wrote:
>> >> And I'm sure that someone in this newsgroup has a friend that is
>> >> convinced that the world will end in 2012. �Many people belive many
>> >> idiotic things, and their belief is not sufficient to make things true.
>> >
>> > But how many of them can make a good, cogent, reasoned argument and
>> > cite actual evidence?
>> About the same number that can make such an argument in support of their
>> language evangelism. Each is based on about the same quality "evidence."
>> Real programmers learn and use whatever tools best fit the task at hand.
> s/best (.*hand)/$1 least badly, given the political and other constraints
> they are obliged to work with/

Point well taken, but I was more or less assuming that the definition
of "best" included many non-technical considerations, so we're entirely
agreed on this point.

> It's possible to write useful programs in languages as unpleasant as VBA
> or TeX, and a decent programmer should find having to do so 'annoying'
> rather than 'crippling'.

Given that I've used both, found them *highly* annoying, and got the
job done anyway, I'll take that as a compliment. :-)

From: John Bokma on
ccc31807 <cartercc(a)> writes:

> But note ... Microsoft seems to be embracing all different sorts of
> communities:
> * bit twiddlers with C++/CLI (which I have had recent experience with
> and which I think MS did a great job with)
> * the OO crowd with C#
> * functional programmers with F#
> * the web developers with ASP.NET
> * even hackers with PowerShell

* "scripters" with IronPython

> I have a friend who is convinced that in ten years we all will have
> adopted the MS .NET framework and will be loving it, and Perl will
> just wither away. This is actually the reason I posted this thread.

Your friend sounds young, otherwise he would have made the same mistake
back in the 90's regarding Java, and learned from it ;-)

John Bokma

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