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From: Leon on 20 Jun 2010 21:18
On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 11:21:12 -0400, "liquidator" <mikeh(a)mad.scientist.com>
wrote:

>
><Leon(a)nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:e7tq16p2m2qd9c93m8sfpnu7q0e5o7gupc(a)4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:59:19 -0400, "liquidator" > I live near a lake
>> where 50 years ago people used to cut ice in the winter, and
>> store it for use in the summer. Lots of work... You know why air
>> conditioners
>> are rated in tons? Thats how much ice they replace! You'd need a storage
>> area
>> bigger than your house to cool it for all summer.
>
>
>But see, that is part of the problem....people tend to think only in terms
>of what they have SEEN. We need new ideas...
>
>You totally blew by the word "efficient" in my post...I don't think you
>meant the ice idea was efficient?

I wasn't disparaging you, just mentioning some history... I've often thought of
storing ice in my basement!

>Take a look at the reversible hand warmers...the ones you boil in a pan,
>then reactivate to give off heat. Those are probably a hundred times more
>efficient than the ice idea. And still way inefficient. But at least an
>improvement.

The most efficient thing about collecting winter ice is the cost... it's a
totally natural product with no energy cost.

> If we reduce consumption 25% by more efficient devices, then another 25% by
>efficient delivery and storage, we have just doubled the length of time
>before finite resources run out.We haven't replaced them, but we have
>seriously reduced pollution.
>
>If I exaggerated those numbers, it was just to make a point.
>
>We will have to make a zillion incremental improvements. There is no one big
>solution.
>
>Here's a thought...gases are liquified by compression, which gives off heat.
>Liquefy nitrogen in the winter, funnel the scrap heat released into the
>buildings. It will take less energy to liquefy nitrogen , at least slightly
>less, if you start at a lower temperature. Store the liquid nitrogen in huge
>underground tanks.
>
>It can be pumped thru insulated pipes to where cooling is needed in the
>summer....

You've just described a heat pump... with time delay... the only advantage would
be the greater ambient temperature effect. Do you know how hard it is to keep
liquified gas a long time? That could cost something.

>I am not saying that can be done efficiently, but it has at least a
>chance...I'm not a detail person, more of a conceptualist. But I'm just
>trying to give you an idea of directions I think we need to look at, not
>specific ideas.

Did you ever hear of a wave motor? It is a device put into the ocean where the
wave action moves a float up and down, driving a wheel through a crank arm like
a steam engine. They are used in 3rd world areas to pump water through
desalination filters up to the beach. I think these are a very useful invention,
yet we don't use them here. Totally free energy. I wish I lived near the ocean!

From: liquidator on 21 Jun 2010 11:45

<Leon(a)nospam.com> wrote in message
news:4qet16dp744r2uvuv97ea784e4s17jclib(a)4ax.com...
> On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 11:21:12 -0400, "liquidator" <mikeh(a)mad.scientist.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>><Leon(a)nospam.com> wrote in message
>>news:e7tq16p2m2qd9c93m8sfpnu7q0e5o7gupc(a)4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:59:19 -0400, "liquidator" > I live near a lake
>>> where 50 years ago people used to cut ice in the winter, and
>>> store it for use in the summer. Lots of work... You know why air
>>> conditioners
>>> are rated in tons? Thats how much ice they replace! You'd need a storage
>>> area
>>> bigger than your house to cool it for all summer.
>>
>>
>>But see, that is part of the problem....people tend to think only in terms
>>of what they have SEEN. We need new ideas...
>>
>>You totally blew by the word "efficient" in my post...I don't think you
>>meant the ice idea was efficient?
>
> I wasn't disparaging you, just mentioning some history... I've often
> thought of
> storing ice in my basement!
>
>>Take a look at the reversible hand warmers...the ones you boil in a pan,
>>then reactivate to give off heat. Those are probably a hundred times more
>>efficient than the ice idea. And still way inefficient. But at least an
>>improvement.
>
> The most efficient thing about collecting winter ice is the cost... it's a
> totally natural product with no energy cost.
>
>> If we reduce consumption 25% by more efficient devices, then another 25%
>> by
>>efficient delivery and storage, we have just doubled the length of time
>>before finite resources run out.We haven't replaced them, but we have
>>seriously reduced pollution.
>>
>>If I exaggerated those numbers, it was just to make a point.
>>
>>We will have to make a zillion incremental improvements. There is no one
>>big
>>solution.
>>
>>Here's a thought...gases are liquified by compression, which gives off
>>heat.
>>Liquefy nitrogen in the winter, funnel the scrap heat released into the
>>buildings. It will take less energy to liquefy nitrogen , at least
>>slightly
>>less, if you start at a lower temperature. Store the liquid nitrogen in
>>huge
>>underground tanks.
>>
>>It can be pumped thru insulated pipes to where cooling is needed in the
>>summer....
>
> You've just described a heat pump... with time delay... the only advantage
> would
> be the greater ambient temperature effect. Do you know how hard it is to
> keep
> liquified gas a long time? That could cost something.
>
>>I am not saying that can be done efficiently, but it has at least a
>>chance...I'm not a detail person, more of a conceptualist. But I'm just
>>trying to give you an idea of directions I think we need to look at, not
>>specific ideas.
>
> Did you ever hear of a wave motor? It is a device put into the ocean where
> the
> wave action moves a float up and down, driving a wheel through a crank arm
> like
> a steam engine. They are used in 3rd world areas to pump water through
> desalination filters up to the beach. I think these are a very useful
> invention,
> yet we don't use them here. Totally free energy. I wish I lived near the
> ocean!
>
Neat idea.

I think we will have to use EVERYTHING in the future.

There's about as much energy stored in an aluminum can as a pint of
gasoline.

How many millions of pints of gasoline get landfilled every year?


From: Phildo on 22 Jun 2010 17:37

<Leon(a)nospam.com> wrote in message
news:e7tq16p2m2qd9c93m8sfpnu7q0e5o7gupc(a)4ax.com...
> As for sound energy, the average speaker is only 5% efficient, so a 1000
> watt
> system will give you 50 watts, and if you can only recover 20% of that,
> thats 10
> watts. Now thats for ALL of the energy. From any given listening point,
> you'd be
> lucky to recover a few milliwatts.

Put a few generators in a noisy enviroment such as by the side of a busy
highway, in a factory or even next to a big waterfall. It would never
replace power generation but it would help recover lost energy.

There is plenty of free energy out there, we just need to learn to harvest
it and get away from using fossil fuels. Have you seen the multi-mirror
solar station they are planning for the Mohave desert?

Phildo


From: liquidator on 24 Jun 2010 16:36

"Phildo" <Phil(a)phildo.net> wrote in message
news:hvraf1$704$1(a)news.eternal-september.org...
>
> <Leon(a)nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:e7tq16p2m2qd9c93m8sfpnu7q0e5o7gupc(a)4ax.com...
>> As for sound energy, the average speaker is only 5% efficient, so a 1000
>> watt
>> system will give you 50 watts, and if you can only recover 20% of that,
>> thats 10
>> watts. Now thats for ALL of the energy. From any given listening point,
>> you'd be
>> lucky to recover a few milliwatts.
>
> Put a few generators in a noisy enviroment such as by the side of a busy
> highway, in a factory or even next to a big waterfall. It would never
> replace power generation but it would help recover lost energy.
>
> There is plenty of free energy out there, we just need to learn to harvest
> it and get away from using fossil fuels. Have you seen the multi-mirror
> solar station they are planning for the Mohave desert?
>
> Phildo
>

The problem, beyon harvesting, is storing and transporting.

The energy has to be when and where you need it to be of any use.


From: Ron on 25 Jun 2010 04:04
On 24/06/2010 21:36, liquidator wrote:
> "Phildo"<Phil(a)phildo.net> wrote in message
> news:hvraf1$704$1(a)news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> <Leon(a)nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:e7tq16p2m2qd9c93m8sfpnu7q0e5o7gupc(a)4ax.com...
>>> As for sound energy, the average speaker is only 5% efficient, so a 1000
>>> watt
>>> system will give you 50 watts, and if you can only recover 20% of that,
>>> thats 10
>>> watts. Now thats for ALL of the energy. From any given listening point,
>>> you'd be
>>> lucky to recover a few milliwatts.
>>
>> Put a few generators in a noisy enviroment such as by the side of a busy
>> highway, in a factory or even next to a big waterfall. It would never
>> replace power generation but it would help recover lost energy.
>>
>> There is plenty of free energy out there, we just need to learn to harvest
>> it and get away from using fossil fuels. Have you seen the multi-mirror
>> solar station they are planning for the Mohave desert?
>>
>> Phildo
>>
>
> The problem, beyon harvesting, is storing and transporting.
>
> The energy has to be when and where you need it to be of any use.
>
>

Surely that`s true of almost all AC electricity power generation
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