GUIs - A Modest Proposal
in [Python]
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From: Grant Edwards on 8 Jun 2010 19:54 On 2010-06-08, Martin v. Loewis <martin(a)v.loewis.de> wrote: > Am 08.06.2010 20:15, schrieb Grant Edwards: >> On 2010-06-08, Martin v. Loewis<martin(a)v.loewis.de> wrote: >>>> TkInter -> Tcl -> Tk -> Xlib >>>> >>>> Is the Tcl intepreter really need to use this GUI? Why not: >>>> >>>> (Pyton ->) Tkinter-API -> Xlib ? >>> >>> Even if this was possible (which it is not) >> >> Why is it not possible? It seems to have been done for other >> languages. > > So you don't know for sure? Which implementation specifically > do you think of? There was a Scheme implementation called STk that didn't use Tcl. There was also a Perl implementation that didn't use Tcl. -- Grant
From: Kevin Walzer on 8 Jun 2010 19:54 On 6/8/10 7:16 PM, Kevin Walzer wrote: > On 6/8/10 6:09 PM, Lie Ryan wrote: >> Much like regex a DSL for matching text, Tcl/Tk is pretty much a DSL for >> creating GUI (anyone knows any real program fully written in >> non-embedded Tcl?). > > http://www.amsn-project.net/ > http://snackamp.sourceforge.net/ > http://www.svi.nl/ > http://installbuilder.bitrock.com/ > http://www.gidhome.com/ > http://www.ellogon.org/ > > etc. > and: http://www.courseforum.com/ http://www.installjammer.com/ http://www.muonics.com/ http://moodss.sourceforge.net/ http://www.inivis.com/ http://www.codebykevin.com/portauthority.html etc. -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com
From: rantingrick on 8 Jun 2010 19:58 On Jun 8, 5:40 pm, geremy condra <debat...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Lie Ryan <lie.1...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 06/09/10 01:17, bart.c wrote: > > >> "Grant Edwards" <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in message > >>news:hullf3$hl4$1(a)reader1.panix.com... > >>> On 2010-06-08, Kevin Walzer <k...(a)codebykevin.com> wrote: > > >>>> Since Tk already provides a basic GUI toolset, and Python can interface > >>>> with it more directly than it can with other toolkits > >>>> (PyGui -> PyGtk -> Gtk -> Xlib), > > >>> Compare that to this: > > >>> TkInter -> Tcl -> Tk -> Xlib > > >> Is the Tcl intepreter really need to use this GUI? Why not: > > >> (Pyton ->) Tkinter-API -> Xlib ? > > >> Most of the work of designing a GUI is, well, designing it. That's > >> already been done for Tkinter so why not just implement the same spec in > >> Python (with whatever lower-level code is needed). Then extending it > >> should be simpler. > > >>>> it's not clear to me what is gained by starting from scratch here. > >>>> (Is it the presence of the Tcl interpreter? I know Tcl is not to > >>>> everyone's taste, but it is an amazing language...) > > >> Some people aren't interested in the amazing language. Only the graphics > >> API that goes with it. > > > How about shifting the viewpoint a little bit. Tcl is like regular > > expression engine and the Tk is like the re API. > > > Much like regex a DSL for matching text, Tcl/Tk is pretty much a DSL for > > creating GUI (anyone knows any real program fully written in > > non-embedded Tcl?). > > > Nobody complains that python included a regular expression engine in its > > standard distribution; so why complain that python included a Tcl > > expression engine in its standard distribution. > > This is a silly argument. > > REs are not full programming languages, even from a theoretical point > of view, aMSN is written in Tcl, as wikipedia would have told you, and > having to depend on the tools of another language to get commonly > desired functionality is not a good thing for a programming language. > > Geremy Condra It's just more cannon fodder to distract attention from and obfuscate the real problem. It blows my mind... The same people who would fight to the death to protect Tkinter's existence in the stdlib never use the library anyway and personally hate it! Does this make any sense to anyone with normal brain function? Not to me. It perplexes me to no end! Why do you protect that which you hate? But the even better question is why do you also fight against any attempt to make it better? hmm...? Talk about ironic! We have a problem and we need some good community discussion to bring about a solution. If all you have to say is... """I don't use Tkinter so i don't care!"""" or """I don't even use GUI's so i don't give a flying fig!""" or """I can't get the GUI i want so screw all of you and the GUI you're pushing!""" or """I'm just trolling for the sake of trolling because i like to read my own press""" .... well just keep your negativity to yourself. When you have real solutions or real ideas that could foster real solutions then for Pete's sake bring them forth and let them be weighed in the balances of truth. But i can tell you right now, everyone will have to sacrifice something to get the perfect GUI for Python. Yes you heard me correctly, the perfect GUI for Python! Not the perfect GUI for you, me, or even xah lee! There is a bright side, this is the best discussion i have witnessed on this subject in two years (Probably due to fact that i did not instigate the discussion). So the question is what should we do and how should we do it? - We can fix Tkinter by making it lean and mean. - We can start fresh and really create something very Pythonic. - We can do nothing and sit around for another two years complaining like premenstrual Prima donna's. So keep the ideas rolling in people. We need to hear from every side of this forum.
From: Kevin Walzer on 8 Jun 2010 20:15 On 6/8/10 7:58 PM, rantingrick wrote: > The same people who would fight > to the death to protect Tkinter's existence in the stdlib never use > the library anyway and personally hate it! I want to keep it in the stdlib because I use it for all my apps, and personally prefer it to any other GUI toolkit out there. -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com
From: Mark Lawrence on 8 Jun 2010 20:35
On 09/06/2010 00:58, rantingrick wrote: > On Jun 8, 5:40 pm, geremy condra<debat...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Lie Ryan<lie.1...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> On 06/09/10 01:17, bart.c wrote: >> >>>> "Grant Edwards"<inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in message >>>> news:hullf3$hl4$1(a)reader1.panix.com... >>>>> On 2010-06-08, Kevin Walzer<k...(a)codebykevin.com> wrote: >> >>>>>> Since Tk already provides a basic GUI toolset, and Python can interface >>>>>> with it more directly than it can with other toolkits >>>>>> (PyGui -> PyGtk -> Gtk -> Xlib), >> >>>>> Compare that to this: >> >>>>> TkInter -> Tcl -> Tk -> Xlib >> >>>> Is the Tcl intepreter really need to use this GUI? Why not: >> >>>> (Pyton ->) Tkinter-API -> Xlib ? >> >>>> Most of the work of designing a GUI is, well, designing it. That's >>>> already been done for Tkinter so why not just implement the same spec in >>>> Python (with whatever lower-level code is needed). Then extending it >>>> should be simpler. >> >>>>>> it's not clear to me what is gained by starting from scratch here. >>>>>> (Is it the presence of the Tcl interpreter? I know Tcl is not to >>>>>> everyone's taste, but it is an amazing language...) >> >>>> Some people aren't interested in the amazing language. Only the graphics >>>> API that goes with it. >> >>> How about shifting the viewpoint a little bit. Tcl is like regular >>> expression engine and the Tk is like the re API. >> >>> Much like regex a DSL for matching text, Tcl/Tk is pretty much a DSL for >>> creating GUI (anyone knows any real program fully written in >>> non-embedded Tcl?). >> >>> Nobody complains that python included a regular expression engine in its >>> standard distribution; so why complain that python included a Tcl >>> expression engine in its standard distribution. >> >> This is a silly argument. >> >> REs are not full programming languages, even from a theoretical point >> of view, aMSN is written in Tcl, as wikipedia would have told you, and >> having to depend on the tools of another language to get commonly >> desired functionality is not a good thing for a programming language. >> >> Geremy Condra > > It's just more cannon fodder to distract attention from and obfuscate > the real problem. It blows my mind... The same people who would fight > to the death to protect Tkinter's existence in the stdlib never use > the library anyway and personally hate it! Does this make any sense to > anyone with normal brain function? Not to me. It perplexes me to no > end! Why do you protect that which you hate? But the even better > question is why do you also fight against any attempt to make it > better? hmm...? Talk about ironic! > > We have a problem and we need some good community discussion to bring > about a solution. If all you have to say is... > > """I don't use Tkinter so i don't care!"""" > or > """I don't even use GUI's so i don't give a flying fig!""" > or > """I can't get the GUI i want so screw all of you and the GUI you're > pushing!""" > or > """I'm just trolling for the sake of trolling because i like to read > my own press""" > > ... well just keep your negativity to yourself. When you have real > solutions or real ideas that could foster real solutions then for > Pete's sake bring them forth and let them be weighed in the balances > of truth. But i can tell you right now, everyone will have to > sacrifice something to get the perfect GUI for Python. Yes you heard > me correctly, the perfect GUI for Python! Not the perfect GUI for you, > me, or even xah lee! > > There is a bright side, this is the best discussion i have witnessed > on this subject in two years (Probably due to fact that i did not > instigate the discussion). So the question is what should we do and > how should we do it? > > - We can fix Tkinter by making it lean and mean. > - We can start fresh and really create something very Pythonic. > - We can do nothing and sit around for another two years complaining > like premenstrual Prima donna's. > > So keep the ideas rolling in people. We need to hear from every side > of this forum. Please be so kind as to stop using the term we when you (singular) mean you (singular). Frankly I wouldn't consider writing a single line of code along these lines as it's a complete non starter. My preference is for the good old command line, mainly because research I read, admittedly years ago, stated that using said beast was far more efficient for experienced users than a GUI. If more recent research suggests that this has changed then great, I'll just sit back and wait until you (singular) write the code to provide the perfect GUI for Python. I look forward to seeing the 0.01 release on 31/12/2015, if I'm lucky. Kindest regards. Mark Lawrence. p.s. as Stephen D'Aprano asked r u r? |