From: rantingrick on 8 Jun 2010 21:43
On Jun 8, 7:15 pm, Kevin Walzer <k...(a)codebykevin.com> wrote:
> On 6/8/10 7:58 PM, rantingrick wrote:
> > The same people who would fight
> > to the death to protect Tkinter's existence in the stdlib never use
> > the library anyway and personally hate it!
> I want to keep it in the stdlib because I use it for all my apps, and
> personally prefer it to any other GUI toolkit out there.
Now thats a valid argument and i thank you for it. I also use Tkinter
quite extensively and it would hurt me to see it go but it cannot stay
the way it exists today. So if we are to keep Tkinter let's get behind
a real effort to fix this damn thing once and for all! There are many
ways people can get behind an effort. They can jump on board and start
writing code or even just say
""" Hey, i don't really use Tkinter (or GUI) but i would like to see a
Python stdlib that is up to date so you have my vote! +1"""
IDLE is also in dire need of an upgrade...
- It does not exit gracefully from some actions
- Error dialogs don't properly return focus to main window
- Replace/Find dialogs are not transient
- The home button should move the cursor one space after ">>> |" (not
in front of it "|>>>")
- A "... " spacer should be inserted automatically in blocks
- Copy should remove leading ">>> " chars
- When using the replace dialog sometimes the highlight does not work
and you can't see which (if any) word is about to be replaced
- In the TabbedPages widget the tabs are almost invisible
- The class browser should be available all the time in a panned
- and more...
But the relentless hoards will parrot off negativity...
""" But i don't use IDLE so i don't care!"""
....Ok then zip your lips and let the ones who do care talk!
From: geremy condra on 8 Jun 2010 21:49
On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
> On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 18:12 -0700, geremy condra wrote:
>> > * IronPython relies on the .Net environment for everything
>> Since .Net (effectively) depends on Windows,
> 100% False; not "effectively" true at all. I run [and develop] .NET
> applications on LINUX every day. IL and the CLR are standards.
Fine, then they can ship it with Linux too, just for you. My point
>> > I don't see why that first one is so much worse than the others. Sure, it
>> > adds an extra dependency to installing Python for GUI programming, but
>> > that's no different to any other GUI toolkit: PyQt has Qt as a
>> > dependency, PyGtk has Gtk as a dependency, etc. (I trust you're not
>> > suggesting that every language needs to create its own fully-independent
>> > GUI toolkit that talks directly to the hardware!)
>> But we don't have any of those in the standard library.
> I just don't see why this is an issue? Every, or pretty darn close,
> significant Python application depends on 3rd party
What does that have to do with the python itself?
From: rantingrick on 8 Jun 2010 22:20
On Jun 8, 8:35 pm, Ben Finney <ben+pyt...(a)benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> Yes, thank you, Steven, for identifying this irritant. I'll add
> identity-hopping to the list of offenses, and add this new identity to
> my kill-file.
So you put up with my antics fine up until you learned of my past
identity. So now i am somehow so annoying as to require a plonking.
NEWS FLASH! I am the same person i was 1 minute ago, 1 hour ago, 1 day
ago, 1 week ago... the only thing that has changed is your perception
of me. Now i ask of you Ben, who is flawed?
"""Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."""
Its seems poor Ben is a victim of his own limited reality. Very sad. :
From: Robert Kern on 8 Jun 2010 23:09
On 6/8/10 10:20 PM, rantingrick wrote:
> On Jun 8, 8:35 pm, Ben Finney<ben+pyt...(a)benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>> Yes, thank you, Steven, for identifying this irritant. I'll add
>> identity-hopping to the list of offenses, and add this new identity to
>> my kill-file.
> So you put up with my antics fine up until you learned of my past
> identity. So now i am somehow so annoying as to require a plonking.
> NEWS FLASH! I am the same person i was 1 minute ago, 1 hour ago, 1 day
> ago, 1 week ago... the only thing that has changed is your perception
> of me.
It means that he, very charitably, gives new irritants the benefit of the doubt.
By changing identities, you are abusing this good behavior. By connecting your
identity to the previous one, his doubt is removed.
> Now i ask of you Ben, who is flawed?
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
an underlying truth."
-- Umberto Eco
From: Steven D'Aprano on 9 Jun 2010 00:29
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 18:12:05 -0700, geremy condra wrote:
> I didn't argue that Tcl is bad. I argued that a dependency on it is bad
> for python. Would you argue that Python should ship with Perl and Java
> because there are best-of-breed tools in those languages and python
> could leverage that? Of course not.
Surely that depends on the tool, how difficult it would be for Python to
duplicate the functionality, and how important it is to provide the tool
as a standard product.
In any case, Python doesn't ship with Tcl and Tk. They are dependencies
*only if you use Tkinter*. It's not compulsory.
[steve(a)sylar ~]$ python2.6
Python 2.6.4 (r264:75706, Feb 1 2010, 13:33:07)
[GCC 4.1.2 20070925 (Red Hat 4.1.2-27)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import Tkinter
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.6/lib-tk/Tkinter.py", line 39, in <module>
import _tkinter # If this fails your Python may not be configured for Tk
ImportError: No module named _tkinter
Now, we might argue that the Python standard library "must" have a GUI
toolkit, in which case it's going to have some non-trivial dependency. I
don't see why it's so much worse to depend on Tcl/Tk compared to some
other external toolkit.
And even if it were undesirable to rely on any external toolkit, I don't
think it's terribly likely that with the resources available to the PSF
anyone is going to create Yet Another GUI Toolkit specifically for
Python. We might agree that, in a perfect world, it would be nice if
Python had no external dependencies at all (well, apart from the OS of
course), but it isn't going to happen anytime soon. Not unless you're