GUIs - A Modest Proposal
in [Python]
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From: Chris Rebert on 9 Jun 2010 05:28 On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Lie Ryan <lie.1296(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 06/09/10 08:20, Martin P. Hellwig wrote: >> However I don't think that x11 represents that majority (just a gut >> feeling I have no data to back this claim up) of gui users, so an equal >> solution should be found for windows and macs. >> >> I do think it is technically possible to have your own window manager in >> python on x11 but I have no idea if you have equal possibilities on mac > > Doesn't Mac uses an X server as well? Nope, it uses Quartz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_(graphics_layer) Apple does offer X11.app though, but that just runs on top of Quartz and is there to let you run *nix GUI programs. Cheers, Chris -- Democracy is in jeopardy; Existentialism is depressing. http://blog.rebertia.com
From: Adam Tauno Williams on 9 Jun 2010 05:38 On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 18:49 -0700, geremy condra wrote: > On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Adam Tauno Williams > <awilliam(a)whitemice.org> wrote: > > On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 18:12 -0700, geremy condra wrote: > >> > * IronPython relies on the .Net environment for everything > >> Since .Net (effectively) depends on Windows, > > 100% False; not "effectively" true at all. I run [and develop] .NET > > applications on LINUX every day. IL and the CLR are standards. > Fine, then they can ship it with Linux too, Uhm... they do. At least in every major distro: openSUSE, Ubuntu, .. > just for you. My point stands. No, you are wrong, factually, -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam(a)whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba
From: geremy condra on 9 Jun 2010 06:04 On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 2:38 AM, Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam(a)whitemice.org> wrote: > On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 18:49 -0700, geremy condra wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Adam Tauno Williams >> <awilliam(a)whitemice.org> wrote: >> > On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 18:12 -0700, geremy condra wrote: >> >> > * IronPython relies on the .Net environment for everything >> >> Since .Net (effectively) depends on Windows, >> > 100% False; not "effectively" true at all. I run [and develop] .NET >> > applications on LINUX every day. IL and the CLR are standards. >> Fine, then they can ship it with Linux too, > > Uhm... they do. At least in every major distro: openSUSE, Ubuntu, .. Reread my original statement. The point was that IronPython would ship with Windows (or Linux....) attached to it, not the other way around. Geremy Condra
From: ant on 9 Jun 2010 07:16 Since I started this thread, I feel a sense of responsibility for it, in some bizarre way. Not to prolong its existence, which is clearly a troubling one for some, but to try to steer it towards some kind of consensus that will irritate the least number of people. Or better, that will gain some kind of support and momentum so that something happens. And since I have neither a reputation to lose, nor any great fondness for most of the proposed solutions, I will try to summarise some of the points made as impartially as I can. And I will add my own opinions; but a group as sophisticated as this will be able to spot them... 1 Although a few advocates of Tkinter have spoken in favour of it, most seem to think that: It's not particularly elegant, either in its use or its implementation with Tcl/Tk If we didn't have a GUI in the distribution, we wouldn't choose Tkinter now; it seems like its inclusion is a sort of historical accident. It may be all right for small projects, but once things get bigger, you have to throw away what you've done and use something else. Not many people use it anyway, so why bother? 2 Most people who have used a GUI have some investment in it. So arguments about which one is best tend to be partial and not wonderfully constructive. Indeed, about the only common thread that comes out seems to be a general dislike of Tkinter. 3 There is a surprising number of people who think that Python shouldn't have any 'favoured' association with a GUI at all. I find that surprising because of my own experience: I have written a few hundred Python programs over the last few years, mostly small and almost entirely for my own benefit. Most of those don't use a GUI. But whenever I write a program that someone else is going to use, it has to have a GUI. Is that not true for most people? 4 Some think that including any sort of GUI is 'bad'. People can choose the one they want from the large list available. I certainly don't want to stop people doing what they want. However many people have neither the time or the expertise to decide, and the experience of choosing the wrong one is a real turn-off. That, in my opinion, is where a replacement for Tkinter should be aimed: the beginning graphics programmer. But if it is built on the right foundation (which Tkinter seems not to be), it could be extended to cover far more useful cases than Tkinter can. 5 I should stop pontificating, and write code. If it's better than the existing, people will use it and it will become the standard. I don't think so. Even vast libraries of well-written code haven't become the standard. I seem to remember a DEC assembler manual from the last century, which said "A standard doesn't have to be optimal, it just has to be standard" (Feel free to correct me on that one. The last century seems like a long time ago). So I think comments like "the system doesn't work like that - nothing happens till code is working" miss the point. We are not talking about some vital but complex module or library here - it's more important than that. We are talking about the thing that the rest of the world sees as Python's biggest missing piece - the thing that beginning programmers look for and don't find - a decent, well- supported and elegant GUI. And who are the beginning programmers going to turn into? If we do our stuff right, Python programmers. If not, Java or PHP or Visual Basic programmers. Or website designers. Or worse (is there a worse?). So, to summarise the summary: I reiterate my call. Somebody has to get Tkinter out of the distribution and replaced by something that - as a minimum - doesn't get slagged off by nearly everyone. It can't be me - I don't have the clout.
From: Adam Tauno Williams on 9 Jun 2010 07:38
On Wed, 2010-06-09 at 04:16 -0700, ant wrote: > Since I started this thread, I feel a sense of responsibility for it, > in some bizarre way. > Not to prolong its existence, which is clearly a troubling one for > some, but to try to steer it towards some kind of consensus that will > irritate the least number of people. Or better, that will gain some > kind of support and momentum so that something happens. The way to build "support and momentum" is to create a project, commit some code, and demonstrate that it solves the proposed problem. If it does, and the problem is real, then it will get support. > 5 I should stop pontificating, and write code. If it's better than the > existing, people will use it and it will become the standard. +1, for whatever "standard" means. > So I think comments like "the system doesn't work like that - nothing > happens till code is working" miss the point. No. that *is* the point. > We are not talking about some vital but complex module or library here Yes, you are. A GUI toolkit is at least complex, inherently. Doubly so [exponentially so?] if you are talking about a cross-platform toolkit that is in anyway "comprehensive". > So, to summarise the summary: I reiterate my call. Somebody has to get > Tkinter out of the distribution and replaced > by something that - as a minimum - doesn't get slagged off by nearly > everyone. > It can't be me - I don't have the clout You get "clout", whatever that means, by writing code. This isn't the senate, it is Open Source. -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam(a)whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba |