GUIs - A Modest Proposal
in [Python]
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From: Martin v. Loewis on 10 Jun 2010 14:26 >> or PyGui would need to be implemented in terms of ctypes (which then >> would prevent its inclusion, because there is a policy that ctypes >> must not be used in the standard library). > > Is there? I wasn't aware of that. What's the reason? ctypes is inherently unsafe. It must be possible to remove it from a Python installation, and still have the standard library work. Regards, Martin
From: Emile van Sebille on 10 Jun 2010 14:52 On 6/10/2010 9:34 AM rantingrick said... > Like it not (And i'm talking directly to all the Unix hackers here!) > Win32 is here to stay! You should have realized that years ago! Frankly, I'm dropping clients that insist on windows only and am actively migrating clients to ubuntu/openoffice/firefox/thunderbird/etc. After 15 years, I don't see that MS has gotten it right yet and I'm tired of fixing stupid windows boxes. Talk about time sinks! Emile
From: Stephen Hansen on 10 Jun 2010 14:56 On 6/10/10 9:34 AM, rantingrick wrote: > Like it not (And i'm talking directly to all the Unix hackers here!) > Win32 is here to stay! You should have realized that years ago! And > likewise, like it or not, GUI is here to stay. You should have also > realized that years ago (although we may be supporting web interfaces > soon...same thing really). If you wish to hide your head in the sand > and ignore these facts hoping that the "old days" of command line and > no windows platform will return, well thats not going to happen. The > rest of us are going to move forward and hope that eventually you will > see the light and tag along. You're bordering very near "silly" now. Drop the rhetoric, it doesn't actually help your case, argument, or position in the least. No one thinks GUI's are going away. No one thinks win32 is going away. Everytime you make a statement like this, you just sound daft. Its not a question of those things going away. Its a question of what exactly belongs in the standard library and what doesn't. Everything in the world that is modern, current, or not "going away" does not need to be in the standard library. Why not include pywin32? Well the first question is: does Mark Hammond even *want* it included? He has to offer it before the question can even be considered, and assign copyright to the PSF. And after that willingness is determined: its huge, and despite all of my *windows* programming-- its what I get *paid* for in my day job-- I never needed it except once. So... uh, why again are we including it? Those people who need it, have ready access. Why not include wxPython and a very-easy-wrapper around it? Because wxPython is also *huge* -- and also directly tied to the development and release cycle of a third-party product (wxWidgets) which is *huge* in and of itself-- you're now asking python-dev to effectively support hundreds of thousands of lines of more code-- and a lot of it in a language (C++) they may not be experts at (Python is C)! Not to mention the only 'very-easy-wrapper' needs work, and there's no clear indication anyone's willing to do the work Why not include PyQT? Licensing makes it impossible. Why not include PyGUI? Currently, its dependencies make it unsuitable, but there's a question as to if its mature enough yet or not. I dunno, I've never used it: it is *useless* to me. No offense to Greg meant. Again: it has nothing at all to do with people not liking GUI's or thinking GUI's are going the way of the dodo. It has to do with people's ideas of what should or should not go in the standard library. Generally speaking? Stuff that everyone or most people can make ready use of... and while yes, doing GUI development is very, very common -- "GUI development" is not a single monolithic thing. Different people have some *very* different needs for what they get out of their GUI development. For example: if you want to embed a CSS-capable web-browser into your app? PyQT is actually your best option-- albeit a commercial one if you're not open source.. wx/Python haven't yet finished WebKit integration(*). If you need some flexible or configuration-based user interfaces, wxPython actually is a very solid solution, with its XML-based GUI creation. Neither of these things are very rare or even too terribly advanced. The reason we do not embed any 'better' GUI then Tkinter into the stdlib? There's several tools available for the job: and there is no clear indication or agreement that one is better or more qualified for inclusion over the others. At least, IMHO. I do not speak for python-dev. > Tkinter and TclTk are dead! I use Tkinter and i can happily say that. > And the ONLY reason i even use Tkinter is the fact that it's there in > the stdlib! Remove the module and i will move on to something better. > Tkinter is legacy software built on legacy software. It was the best > choice way back when Guido forged the path. But now Tkinter has fallen > into obscurity. Sure it's useful, i use it all the time. Rhetoric. > But it's too > large, too slow, and just too damn ugly to be part of "our" Python > stdlib. It is fortunate that my Python is not ruled by the judgements of what you think belongs in your Python. There is clearly no "our" Python. > Embedded interpretor, YUCK! If people want to use Tkinter they > can download it as a 3rd party module, no harm done! But Tkinter is > harming Python by disgracing Python's stdlib and slowing Python down. Not just rhetoric, but silly rhetoric. > PyGUI is still the front runner and has my vote until someone can show > me a better option. I think if PyGUI where around circa 1995 Guido > would have pounced on it like a hungry tiger on a wildebeest. Ask > yourself what a Python GUI should look like, and what it should feel > like. Then go and use PyGUI. The choice will be obvious. PyGUI is indeed a solid project, and perhaps-- eventually-- a contender for replacing Tkinter, once it works the kinks out and matures. Maybe it is almost mature enough now? Maybe it needs more help? If so-- your time would be better spent downloading it, using it, and offering some patches, improving it -- then being silly and sounding like a religious nut. Things don't go into the stdlib to mature. -- Stephen Hansen ... me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
From: Benjamin Kaplan on 10 Jun 2010 15:02 On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 9:34 AM, rantingrick <rantingrick(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jun 10, 3:52 am, Gregory Ewing <greg.ew...(a)canterbury.ac.nz> wrote: > >> Pywin32 does seem to have grown rather haphazardly. Some >> functionality is wrapped in two different ways in different >> modules, for no apparently good reason, and some other >> things are wrapped incompletely or not at all. A well >> thought out replacement suitable for stdlib inclusion >> wouldn't go amiss. > > You summed up in a most elegant way what i was unable to do earlier. > But i want to add more... > > I think PyWin32, like Tkinter, was another gift we have failed to > maintain on our end. The great Mark Hammond brought us the much need > functionality of PyWin32 and even today it has not be seized upon and > made better by the Python community? Do we expect Mark to just keep > maintaining and supporting what REALLY should be a stdlib module > forever? > > Like it not (And i'm talking directly to all the Unix hackers here!) > Win32 is here to stay! You should have realized that years ago! And > likewise, like it or not, GUI is here to stay. You should have also > realized that years ago (although we may be supporting web interfaces > soon...same thing really). If you wish to hide your head in the sand > and ignore these facts hoping that the "old days" of command line and > no windows platform will return, well thats not going to happen. The > rest of us are going to move forward and hope that eventually you will > see the light and tag along. > It probably doesn't have as much staying power as you think. The only reason that having PyWin32 is a big deal and having PyObj-C, PyGTK, or PyQT is not is because the operating systems that use the other 3 come with Python pre-installed. If Microsoft ever decides to pre-install Python on Windows, it's going to be IronPython, where PyWin32 becomes a non-issue (unless you really really hate yourself).
From: rantingrick on 10 Jun 2010 15:18
On Jun 10, 1:52 pm, Emile van Sebille <em...(a)fenx.com> wrote: > After 15 years, I don't see that MS has gotten it right yet and I'm > tired of fixing stupid windows boxes. Talk about time sinks! And i 100% agree Emille. Just for the record i hate windows, I hate win32 programming, i hate MS office, and I hate VB. I could rant for hours about how Windows sucks but for the sake of this thread I will stop it at that. Unfortunately the mindless masses use Windows extensively so we are forced to support it... """It's not going away just because we put our heads in the sand"""" .... that was my point about win32. |