From: geremy condra on
On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve(a)remove-this-cybersource.com.au> wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 15:40:51 -0700, geremy condra wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Lie Ryan <lie.1296(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Nobody complains that python included a regular expression engine in
>>> its standard distribution; so why complain that python included a Tcl
>>> expression engine in its standard distribution.
>>
>> This is a silly argument.
>>
>> REs are not full programming languages, even from a theoretical point of
>> view,
>
> True, but some theoretical extension to REs could be. If I've understood
> correctly, Perl's regexes aren't actually regular expressions any more
> (they're a superset) and might even be Turing Complete.

I hereby theorize an extension to python that allows it to cook toast.
Therefore, python is a toaster.

> In any case, the point is not that you can or can't write your entire
> application using a RE. The point is that regexes are a mini-language, a
> DSL, not written directly in Python.

So is the string formatting mini-language. I wouldn't get all wrapped
up in the idea that its ok to include anything that can be called a
language just because we have RE support.

>> aMSN is written in Tcl, as wikipedia would have told you, and
>> having to depend on the tools of another language to get commonly
>> desired functionality is not a good thing for a programming language.
>
> I don't see why you think so. Python is specifically designed to be a
> glue language, to bring together functionality from disparate components
> written in other languages and provide a user-friendly language around
> them. Fundamentally, what's the difference between these?

I didn't argue that Tcl is bad. I argued that a dependency on it is
bad for python. Would you argue that Python should ship with
Perl and Java because there are best-of-breed tools in those
languages and python could leverage that? Of course not.

> * CPython relies on Tk/Tcl for a GUI

Unfortunately true.

> * CPython relies on a C library for regular expressions

Irrelevantly true.

> * IronPython relies on the .Net environment for everything

Since .Net (effectively) depends on Windows, I suggest that
IronPython should ship with Windows as well. After all, many
languages depend on the operating system- why should it be
so much worse to ship with one?

> * Jython relies on Java libraries for many things

See above.

> I don't see why that first one is so much worse than the others. Sure, it
> adds an extra dependency to installing Python for GUI programming, but
> that's no different to any other GUI toolkit: PyQt has Qt as a
> dependency, PyGtk has Gtk as a dependency, etc. (I trust you're not
> suggesting that every language needs to create its own fully-independent
> GUI toolkit that talks directly to the hardware!)

But we don't have any of those in the standard library.

> What does it matter that Tk is Turing Complete and Qt or Gtk aren't?

I wouldn't support including either of the above either, but it matters
because it's a top-ten programming language that has to bootstrap
its way into usefulness in a common part of the field in a pretty
unclean way.

> In any case, if you consider Tkinter is harmful, don't use it. It isn't
> like GUI programming in Python relies on it, there are alternatives.

You won't hear an argument out of me about pulling it out or leaving
it in- I think it was a bad decision to depend on it, but that it's too
late now and that's that.

Geremy Condra
From: rantingrick on
On Jun 8, 5:38 am, Steven D'Aprano <st...(a)REMOVE-THIS-
cybersource.com.au> wrote:

> Hmmm... there's something terribly familiar about this style of speech...
> rantingrick, did you used to post under the name "r" using an gmail
> account starting with "rt8"?


Steven, i've always thought of you as one of the more intelligent
readers of this list and again you have proven me correct. It's good
to be in the company of peers. ;-)

ps: Except you may want to refrain from using the phrase "used to" and
instead use a more proper grammar of "previously", but i digress.
From: Adam Tauno Williams on
On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 18:12 -0700, geremy condra wrote:
> > * IronPython relies on the .Net environment for everything
> Since .Net (effectively) depends on Windows,

100% False; not "effectively" true at all. I run [and develop] .NET
applications on LINUX every day. IL and the CLR are standards.

> > I don't see why that first one is so much worse than the others. Sure, it
> > adds an extra dependency to installing Python for GUI programming, but
> > that's no different to any other GUI toolkit: PyQt has Qt as a
> > dependency, PyGtk has Gtk as a dependency, etc. (I trust you're not
> > suggesting that every language needs to create its own fully-independent
> > GUI toolkit that talks directly to the hardware!)
> But we don't have any of those in the standard library.

I just don't see why this is an issue? Every, or pretty darn close,
significant Python application depends on 3rd party
modules/component/libraries.

--
Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam(a)whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA
<http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com>
OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba

From: Adam Tauno Williams on
On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 16:58 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
> We have a problem

No, we don't. Or at least, I don't.

> """I don't use Tkinter so i don't care!""""

+1

> ... well just keep your negativity to yourself. When you have real
> solutions or real ideas that could foster real solutions then for
> Pete's sake bring them forth and let them be weighed in the balances
> of truth. But i can tell you right now, everyone will have to
> sacrifice something to get the perfect GUI for Python.

And I'll be riding winged Unicorn's in New York's Time Square tomorrow.
That's as likely as a "perfect GUI" (whatever that means).

> Yes you heard
> me correctly, the perfect GUI for Python! Not the perfect GUI for you,
> me, or even xah lee!

A "perfect GUI for Python" is just a nebulous fantasy.

> There is a bright side, this is the best discussion i have witnessed
> on this subject in two years (Probably due to fact that i did not
> instigate the discussion). So the question is what should we do and
> how should we do it?
> - We can fix Tkinter by making it lean and mean.
> - We can start fresh and really create something very Pythonic.
> - We can do nothing and sit around for another two years complaining
> like premenstrual Prima donna's.

Option #4 - we can continue to very effectively develop solutions with
the situation as it is. Witness the awesome Zeitgeist application in
GNOME 3 - a GUI, developed in *gasp* Python. A real working solution
that is part of a major project... Hmmmm.

> So keep the ideas rolling in people. We need to hear from every side
> of this forum.

Meanwhile everyone who disagrees with you will be told "well just keep
your negativity to yourself". So much for "every side".

Signing out of this thread.

--
Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam(a)whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA
<http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com>
OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba

From: Ben Finney on
rantingrick <rantingrick(a)gmail.com> writes:

> On Jun 8, 5:38 am, Steven D'Aprano <st...(a)REMOVE-THIS-
> cybersource.com.au> wrote:
>
> > Hmmm... there's something terribly familiar about this style of
> > speech... rantingrick, did you used to post under the name "r" using
> > an gmail account starting with "rt8"?
>
> Steven, i've always thought of you as one of the more intelligent
> readers of this list and again you have proven me correct.

Yes, thank you, Steven, for identifying this irritant. I'll add
identity-hopping to the list of offenses, and add this new identity to
my kill-file.

--
\ “The difference between religions and cults is determined by |
`\ how much real estate is owned.” —Frank Zappa |
_o__) |
Ben Finney