Laptop and an expansion box questions??????
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From: PeoplesChoice on 9 Jul 2010 21:51 No message found.......... Bob On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 16:00:18 -0400, PeoplesChoice(a)Chicago.net wrote: >On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 12:04:55 -0700, Mike Easter <MikeE(a)ster.invalid> >wrote: > >>PeoplesChoice(a)Chicago.net wrote: >> >>> Now, I spend most of the time in RI because my mother-in-law has dementia >>> and lives in an assisted living home. At some point, she will go into a >>> nursing home. >> >>I mostly have that picture. Does that mean that your MIL (and/or >>daughter) have a full-on home in RI - likely the home that your MIL used >>to live in before she moved into the assisted living quarters? > >No, both homes belongs to my wife and I (no daughter). My three sons are >grown and live elsewhere. > >> >>> Whichever home I'm >>> in, I want to have the same (more or less) capabilities with the >>> computer. Unfortunately, that means having duplicates of many >>> components. I'd like to keep this to a minimum, but haven't completely >>> thought it through. I need help!! >> >>It would seem to me that your relationship with your computer would be >>different in the two places. In RI you and your wife are together and >>there would also be a computer there. I sense that in TX, you and your >>computer are together :-) > >No again. My wife and I live together - whether we're in Rhode Islasnd >or Texas. > >> >>It seems like you need a different computer environment in TX than RI, >>but I'm just guessing. >> >>> It seems to me that having my duplicate Desktop in both places >>> would be a lot less expensive than a super laptop (which would never >>> serve my needs completely anyway). >> >>Or maybe not exactly duplicate. It seems like TX needs a different kind >>of rig than RI. > >Most likely, not.
From: PeoplesChoice on 9 Jul 2010 22:04 WOW!!! I've got a lot to digest here. Thanks very much for your input. When I get a little more knowledgeable, I'll reply (probably with more questions). Hope I live long enough to get going on this project. Bob On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 16:45:57 -0400, Paul <nospam(a)needed.com> wrote: >PeoplesChoice(a)Chicago.net wrote: >> Please see my response below: >> >> On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 09:41:08 -0700, Mike Easter <MikeE(a)ster.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> PeoplesChoice(a)Chicago.net wrote: >>> >>>> Comments please! (from anyone). >>> In the beginning, you started this thread with questions about a LT >>> laptop to have the same computer on both ends between RI and TX. >>> >>> Some of us were saying it was easier to have a modest DT computer on >>> both ends and something 'light' to travel with - or even just travel >>> with a portable hdd or I have preferred a removable hdd (tray/caddy) in >>> the past. >>> >>> Nowadays you can have an external/portable SATA at SATA speeds instead >>> of USB bottleneck/chokepoint. >>> >>> But now you are describing some pretty elaborate functions for the >>> computer you may build. Does that mean that you want all of this >>> functionality on both ends of RI and TX, or that you only want some of >>> the functions on both ends and other functions at one end? >> >> The short answer is 'yes.' But the two desktops might not be exactly the >> same - depending on the house. But my plan, as of right now, IS to make >> them exactly the same. >> >> I'm sorry to confuse you - and I wasn't really aware that there is a >> GROUP of you that are following this thread. The fact that there is a >> group makes me feel more comfortable in embarking on building a desktop >> (I still don't understand the difference between a desktop and a >> workstation). The more (educated) opinions, the better. >> >> Now, I spend most of the time in RI because my mother-in-law has dementia >> and lives in an assisted living home. At some point, she will go into a >> nursing home. My wife is her "guardian". We are legally residents of >> Texas and own a home there - but spend the majority of time in RI where >> my MIL lives. Every few months, we go there for three weeks. In the >> future, it may extend to four weeks - depends on my MIL's condition. When >> the inevitable happens, we will move to Texas permanently. I don't like >> living in two places - but circumstances dictate it. Whichever home I'm >> in, I want to have the same (more or less) capabilities with the >> computer. Unfortunately, that means having duplicates of many >> components. I'd like to keep this to a minimum, but haven't completely >> thought it through. I need help!! >> >> My wife and I have a laptop now (a simple HP Pavilion) and it suffices >> for Internet and email. By traveling, I meant just going back and forth >> between Texas and RI - not on the road. But I am a computer enthusiast >> and want what I want - in both places. I hope this explanation describes >> my situation. I don't really need a laptop of my own if I'm going to >> build two computers. At the time, I was just thinking I could get away >> with a super laptop and plug in all my (duplicate) peripherals where ever >> I was at the time. You (the group) have convinced me that I should >> consider the removeable hard drive path - and that's where my head is at >> now. It seems to me that having my duplicate Desktop in both places >> would be a lot less expensive than a super laptop (which would never >> serve my needs completely anyway). Also, replacing a super laptop every >> few years is something I don't really want to do either. Besides, I've >> always wanted to be able to build a desktop and it seems like this would >> be that opportunity (with the help of 'the group'. I'm assuming I could >> keep up with technology for a longer period of time with destops that I >> build myself by changing components. I know I need good advice, though, >> as I'm proceeding. >> >> If you need anything more to clarify my position, please ask so we get >> off in the right direction. Thanks for your interest............ >> >> Bob > >The nice thing about the desktop computer, is it has room for expansion. > >You need to put a little planning into the purchase of the motherboard. >Some expansion slot patterns are more useful than others. > >For each "project" you hope to do with the "flexible computer", you >still need to learn what interfaces are convenient or high quality, >before you can carry out the project. > >For example, say you want to drive a TV set, with a video card. >These might be some interface choices - > > HDMI > YPrPb component, VGA > S-video > Composite > >In years past, a person might have connected a computer to a TV via a >composite (round RCA) jack. But that is a low quality connection. In the >list of interfaces in the preceding line, something like HDMI might >be a way to interface to a modern TV set. It is a digital connection, >so there should be no picture degradation via the cabling. Component output >is not popular on modern video cards now (probably something to do with >preventing movie copying), and only old video cards still come with >component cables. Some TV sets have a VGA connector, which has >separate analog signal for R,G,B, so that is another method that >will work. > >For each hardware project you plan to try, there will be interfaces you'll >need. If you really wanted to plan for all these projects in advance, >it'll take you a couple months to do all the planning. > >This is your project list: > >1) handle my music system > > Some higher end motherboards, have S/PDIF optical or coax digital sound > outputs, for connecting stereo digital or 5.1 compressed AC3 to an AV > receiver. In addition, there may be six or eight channel analog audio > on the back connectors. > > You can also purchase a PCI or PCI Express sound card, like a SoundBlaster > brand product of some sort. Sometimes the results are a little better. > My motherboard sound is a bit flat and lifeless (bad drivers). > >2) 3D flat screen television system > > A flat screen TV (without the 3D in the title), can be driven by > the video card, if the video card has the right connectors on it. > > I don't know how a "3D flat screen" works. Shutter glasses ? Nvidia > had some scheme to do that, but it's a bit on the obscure side > (you may have trouble finding people who got it working, and > understand the requirements). It might involve double frame rate > output for example. You'll need to find an example of someone > doing such a setup, to understand the hardware requirements for it. > >3) TIVO type digital recorder > > For broadcast TV, you might want a TV tuner card. For some kind of > cable digital TV, there might be a set top box, and it will have some > interface like perhaps Firewire on it. Again, you start by looking > at how you get TV in your area, to begin to understand what to buy. > Some cable content may attempt to be exclusionary, using the need > for a cable card to decrypt content, as a means to convince you > to buy their "real TIVO". So recording *all* content, might not > be that easy. > > You could browse here, for some ideas. > > http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/prods.html > > For the OS, you might also want a version of Windows that bundles > Media Center (Windows 7 comes in several SKUs, some of which include > Media Center.) Some hardware devices are designed to work with > Media Center, which takes some of the pain out of setting them up. > >4) videoconferencing (Skype) > > You could use a USB webcam. The rest of it would be software. > The specs on USB webcams tend to be a lie, in that you can get > 640x480 @ 30FPS from them, but trying to get 1280x1024 ends up > running at 5FPS, which is just damned annoying. And that is a > hardware limit. The USB webcam specs don't go into details, > to hide issues like this until it is too late. > >5) Home security > > Depending on whether you use an IP camera (more expensive), or > regular composite camera, you may need a capture card. You can > get cards based on BT878 or the like, which may plug into a PCI slot. > But you'd be better off with PCI Express for that, if you can find it. > > Part of the deception of home security, is that the picture quality > will be easy to get. If you're protecting wide open spaces, it can be > hard to get enough resolution, for the results to be useful. If > a teenager vandalizes your car, and the picture of the face of the > teenager is three pixels high, the policeman isn't going to be > able to catch him. > >6) ham radio > > RS232 for control of some sort ? Some projects still require RS232, > whereas it won't be common as a built-in on the motherboard. I'm > using a couple USB to RS232 external adapters, but I don't really > like them. A cabling mess... > >7) home conveniences > > Like switching lights on remotely ? There will likely be an interface > module that plugs into one of your outlets. And some standard like USB, > for connecting the box to your computer. > >You can scale down your video card a bit. This card is thin, taking >a single slot width. It uses 39W of electricity flat out, less while >idling. It has DVI (for an LCD monitor), VGA (potentially for TV or >to an older monitor, and HDMI (for the HDTV set). There are zero additional >power connectors, so all the power comes from the PCI Express slot power >pins. > >http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102874 > >http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/14-102-874-Z01?$S640W$ > >The DVI output on that family, is dual link, meaning you can drive >an Apple 30" high res monitor with it. > >http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/graphics/ati-radeon-hd-5000/hd-5570/Pages/hd-5570-specifications.aspx > >Who knows, you might even be able to get away with stuffing that >video card, in the white slot on the right. That might cause >less loss of other expansion connectors. > >P6X58D Premium > >http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/13-131-614-Z03?$S640W$ > >http://images.highspeedbackbone.net/SKUimages/enhanced/A455-2869-call07-or.jpg > >Since that video card is shorter in length, it isn't likely to >bump into anything. It would likely come up to the center of the >CMOS coin cell battery, in terms of length. > >With a lower power video card, you can move down a bit in terms >of power supply capacity. I picked this example, because it shows >"modular cabling". Since you're going to be inside the computer >case a lot, a modular cabling supply allows unused cables to be >unplugged at the power supply end. The main 20+4 and ATX12V 2x2 >or 2x4 splittable connectors, are permanently affixed to the supply >(as you'll always need them). The peripheral cabling, whether PCI Express, >SATA power for hard drive, or Molex power for hard drive, can be >unplugged when you aren't using them. Modular supplies are fine, >unless the connectors aren't properly keyed, and there is a >danger of plugging a cable into the wrong "hole". Some people >have had expensive kit burned, by stupid connector choices >by the manufacturer of the modular ATX supply. > >http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341022 > >More and more supplies are coming with schemes like "Active PFC", >which is power factor correction. One issue with that, is the >interaction with UPS (uninterruptable power supplies). Some of the >cheaper UPS don't have clean sine wave output, and the computer >ATX power supply will cause the UPS to trip out. In some cases, >this requires the purchase of a different UPS, or a different >ATX supply. Always read the power supply reviews, for any warnings >about issues with a UPS. I run my current computer on a UPS, >due to the number of "1 second outages" we get here. Our >"rural quality" power wiring, has some issues with "line slap". >My UPS is hardly ever called on, to run for long periods on >battery. It's usually a short "beeep" and then the AC comes >back. My current power supply is "UPS friendly", and won't fight >with my UPS. But some of the newer Active PFC supplies, would >cause me to have to buy another UPS. > > Paul
From: PeoplesChoice on 10 Jul 2010 14:52 You guys have provided a LOT of information - but where do I START so I can plan my rig(s)? I need to understand what a tricked out rig is capable of - and still be upgradeable. Bob On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 16:45:57 -0400, Paul <nospam(a)needed.com> wrote: >PeoplesChoice(a)Chicago.net wrote: >> Please see my response below: >> >> On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 09:41:08 -0700, Mike Easter <MikeE(a)ster.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> PeoplesChoice(a)Chicago.net wrote: >>> >>>> Comments please! (from anyone). >>> In the beginning, you started this thread with questions about a LT >>> laptop to have the same computer on both ends between RI and TX. >>> >>> Some of us were saying it was easier to have a modest DT computer on >>> both ends and something 'light' to travel with - or even just travel >>> with a portable hdd or I have preferred a removable hdd (tray/caddy) in >>> the past. >>> >>> Nowadays you can have an external/portable SATA at SATA speeds instead >>> of USB bottleneck/chokepoint. >>> >>> But now you are describing some pretty elaborate functions for the >>> computer you may build. Does that mean that you want all of this >>> functionality on both ends of RI and TX, or that you only want some of >>> the functions on both ends and other functions at one end? >> >> The short answer is 'yes.' But the two desktops might not be exactly the >> same - depending on the house. But my plan, as of right now, IS to make >> them exactly the same. >> >> I'm sorry to confuse you - and I wasn't really aware that there is a >> GROUP of you that are following this thread. The fact that there is a >> group makes me feel more comfortable in embarking on building a desktop >> (I still don't understand the difference between a desktop and a >> workstation). The more (educated) opinions, the better. >> >> Now, I spend most of the time in RI because my mother-in-law has dementia >> and lives in an assisted living home. At some point, she will go into a >> nursing home. My wife is her "guardian". We are legally residents of >> Texas and own a home there - but spend the majority of time in RI where >> my MIL lives. Every few months, we go there for three weeks. In the >> future, it may extend to four weeks - depends on my MIL's condition. When >> the inevitable happens, we will move to Texas permanently. I don't like >> living in two places - but circumstances dictate it. Whichever home I'm >> in, I want to have the same (more or less) capabilities with the >> computer. Unfortunately, that means having duplicates of many >> components. I'd like to keep this to a minimum, but haven't completely >> thought it through. I need help!! >> >> My wife and I have a laptop now (a simple HP Pavilion) and it suffices >> for Internet and email. By traveling, I meant just going back and forth >> between Texas and RI - not on the road. But I am a computer enthusiast >> and want what I want - in both places. I hope this explanation describes >> my situation. I don't really need a laptop of my own if I'm going to >> build two computers. At the time, I was just thinking I could get away >> with a super laptop and plug in all my (duplicate) peripherals where ever >> I was at the time. You (the group) have convinced me that I should >> consider the removeable hard drive path - and that's where my head is at >> now. It seems to me that having my duplicate Desktop in both places >> would be a lot less expensive than a super laptop (which would never >> serve my needs completely anyway). Also, replacing a super laptop every >> few years is something I don't really want to do either. Besides, I've >> always wanted to be able to build a desktop and it seems like this would >> be that opportunity (with the help of 'the group'. I'm assuming I could >> keep up with technology for a longer period of time with destops that I >> build myself by changing components. I know I need good advice, though, >> as I'm proceeding. >> >> If you need anything more to clarify my position, please ask so we get >> off in the right direction. Thanks for your interest............ >> >> Bob > >The nice thing about the desktop computer, is it has room for expansion. > >You need to put a little planning into the purchase of the motherboard. >Some expansion slot patterns are more useful than others. > >For each "project" you hope to do with the "flexible computer", you >still need to learn what interfaces are convenient or high quality, >before you can carry out the project. > >For example, say you want to drive a TV set, with a video card. >These might be some interface choices - > > HDMI > YPrPb component, VGA > S-video > Composite > >In years past, a person might have connected a computer to a TV via a >composite (round RCA) jack. But that is a low quality connection. In the >list of interfaces in the preceding line, something like HDMI might >be a way to interface to a modern TV set. It is a digital connection, >so there should be no picture degradation via the cabling. Component output >is not popular on modern video cards now (probably something to do with >preventing movie copying), and only old video cards still come with >component cables. Some TV sets have a VGA connector, which has >separate analog signal for R,G,B, so that is another method that >will work. > >For each hardware project you plan to try, there will be interfaces you'll >need. If you really wanted to plan for all these projects in advance, >it'll take you a couple months to do all the planning. > >This is your project list: > >1) handle my music system > > Some higher end motherboards, have S/PDIF optical or coax digital sound > outputs, for connecting stereo digital or 5.1 compressed AC3 to an AV > receiver. In addition, there may be six or eight channel analog audio > on the back connectors. > > You can also purchase a PCI or PCI Express sound card, like a SoundBlaster > brand product of some sort. Sometimes the results are a little better. > My motherboard sound is a bit flat and lifeless (bad drivers). > >2) 3D flat screen television system > > A flat screen TV (without the 3D in the title), can be driven by > the video card, if the video card has the right connectors on it. > > I don't know how a "3D flat screen" works. Shutter glasses ? Nvidia > had some scheme to do that, but it's a bit on the obscure side > (you may have trouble finding people who got it working, and > understand the requirements). It might involve double frame rate > output for example. You'll need to find an example of someone > doing such a setup, to understand the hardware requirements for it. > >3) TIVO type digital recorder > > For broadcast TV, you might want a TV tuner card. For some kind of > cable digital TV, there might be a set top box, and it will have some > interface like perhaps Firewire on it. Again, you start by looking > at how you get TV in your area, to begin to understand what to buy. > Some cable content may attempt to be exclusionary, using the need > for a cable card to decrypt content, as a means to convince you > to buy their "real TIVO". So recording *all* content, might not > be that easy. > > You could browse here, for some ideas. > > http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/prods.html > > For the OS, you might also want a version of Windows that bundles > Media Center (Windows 7 comes in several SKUs, some of which include > Media Center.) Some hardware devices are designed to work with > Media Center, which takes some of the pain out of setting them up. > >4) videoconferencing (Skype) > > You could use a USB webcam. The rest of it would be software. > The specs on USB webcams tend to be a lie, in that you can get > 640x480 @ 30FPS from them, but trying to get 1280x1024 ends up > running at 5FPS, which is just damned annoying. And that is a > hardware limit. The USB webcam specs don't go into details, > to hide issues like this until it is too late. > >5) Home security > > Depending on whether you use an IP camera (more expensive), or > regular composite camera, you may need a capture card. You can > get cards based on BT878 or the like, which may plug into a PCI slot. > But you'd be better off with PCI Express for that, if you can find it. > > Part of the deception of home security, is that the picture quality > will be easy to get. If you're protecting wide open spaces, it can be > hard to get enough resolution, for the results to be useful. If > a teenager vandalizes your car, and the picture of the face of the > teenager is three pixels high, the policeman isn't going to be > able to catch him. > >6) ham radio > > RS232 for control of some sort ? Some projects still require RS232, > whereas it won't be common as a built-in on the motherboard. I'm > using a couple USB to RS232 external adapters, but I don't really > like them. A cabling mess... > >7) home conveniences > > Like switching lights on remotely ? There will likely be an interface > module that plugs into one of your outlets. And some standard like USB, > for connecting the box to your computer. > >You can scale down your video card a bit. This card is thin, taking >a single slot width. It uses 39W of electricity flat out, less while >idling. It has DVI (for an LCD monitor), VGA (potentially for TV or >to an older monitor, and HDMI (for the HDTV set). There are zero additional >power connectors, so all the power comes from the PCI Express slot power >pins. > >http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102874 > >http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/14-102-874-Z01?$S640W$ > >The DVI output on that family, is dual link, meaning you can drive >an Apple 30" high res monitor with it. > >http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/graphics/ati-radeon-hd-5000/hd-5570/Pages/hd-5570-specifications.aspx > >Who knows, you might even be able to get away with stuffing that >video card, in the white slot on the right. That might cause >less loss of other expansion connectors. > >P6X58D Premium > >http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/13-131-614-Z03?$S640W$ > >http://images.highspeedbackbone.net/SKUimages/enhanced/A455-2869-call07-or.jpg > >Since that video card is shorter in length, it isn't likely to >bump into anything. It would likely come up to the center of the >CMOS coin cell battery, in terms of length. > >With a lower power video card, you can move down a bit in terms >of power supply capacity. I picked this example, because it shows >"modular cabling". Since you're going to be inside the computer >case a lot, a modular cabling supply allows unused cables to be >unplugged at the power supply end. The main 20+4 and ATX12V 2x2 >or 2x4 splittable connectors, are permanently affixed to the supply >(as you'll always need them). The peripheral cabling, whether PCI Express, >SATA power for hard drive, or Molex power for hard drive, can be >unplugged when you aren't using them. Modular supplies are fine, >unless the connectors aren't properly keyed, and there is a >danger of plugging a cable into the wrong "hole". Some people >have had expensive kit burned, by stupid connector choices >by the manufacturer of the modular ATX supply. > >http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341022 > >More and more supplies are coming with schemes like "Active PFC", >which is power factor correction. One issue with that, is the >interaction with UPS (uninterruptable power supplies). Some of the >cheaper UPS don't have clean sine wave output, and the computer >ATX power supply will cause the UPS to trip out. In some cases, >this requires the purchase of a different UPS, or a different >ATX supply. Always read the power supply reviews, for any warnings >about issues with a UPS. I run my current computer on a UPS, >due to the number of "1 second outages" we get here. Our >"rural quality" power wiring, has some issues with "line slap". >My UPS is hardly ever called on, to run for long periods on >battery. It's usually a short "beeep" and then the AC comes >back. My current power supply is "UPS friendly", and won't fight >with my UPS. But some of the newer Active PFC supplies, would >cause me to have to buy another UPS. > > Paul
From: Paul on 10 Jul 2010 16:58 PeoplesChoice(a)Chicago.net wrote: > You guys have provided a LOT of information - but where do I START so I > can plan my rig(s)? I need to understand what a tricked out rig is > capable of - and still be upgradeable. > > Bob You start with the processor socket. ******* Intel LGA1366 - three memory channels, memory connects direct to processor - lots of PCI Express lanes, for fewest bandwidth compromises (not that you'd notice or anything) LGA1156 - two memory channels, memory connects direct to processor - several tiers of performance, with cheapest processors actually coming closer to LGA775 architecture. LGA775 - memory connects to Northbridge. Northbridge choice makes some difference to system performance (like the VIA chipset on my previous motherboard, ran the memory pretty slow). - uses Core2 family processors like the other sockets, but the other sockets have the advantage of the memory being connected directly to the processor. AMD (For those on a budget, or those who don't want to "waste money". Entry level to midrange performance levels.) AM2 - two memory channels, memory connects direct to processor. DDR2 memory. - single power plane used by the processor for powering. AM2+ - two memory channels, memory connects direct to processor. DDR2 memory. - split plane power, separate power for processor core and memory interface. AM3 - two memory channels, memory connects direct to processor. DDR2 or DDR3 memory. The motherboard design will fix the memory choice to one of the two types. I.e. You can buy an AM3 processor, and use it with DDR2 memory motherboard. These days, with the memory prices, you'd just go DDR3. - split plane power, separate power for processor core and memory interface ******* Any processor socket, will have a limited life. The trend now, of connecting memory directly to the processor, plays a part. The memory industry needs the memory type to change every two years, to make money. It may not be apparent, but the AMD approach above, has more socket compatibility between generations. If a new memory type were to come out, it might well share most of the characteristics of AM3, with just a new memory type supported on the processor pins. If you buy the right processor to start with, chances are you're not going to need to upgrade it anyway. The processor can have 1,2,3,4, or 6 cores, depending on socket and manufacturer. You check the motherboard web site, for the "CPU compatibility" list, to make sure the processor you want to use, is supported. I also like to check the list, to see if high power demanding processors are supported, like 140W processors on AMD motherboards. Intel ones might go to 130W. A top end AMD CPU, might be like this one. Some Intel processors, will be faster than this one. $295. You'd use an AM3 motherboard and some DDR3 memory. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103849 A top end Intel, might be like this one. $965. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115223 But many people would settle for an entry level LGA1366 like this. $295. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115202 The "clock rates" aren't equally powerful. Clock for clock, Intel is faster. You'd check a benchmark page, for more details. (Here, you can see the i7-920 quad core 2.66GHz, is slightly faster than the AMD six core 2.8GHz.) http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2009-desktop-cpu-charts-update-1/Fritz-11,1406.html And here, you can see the i7-920 is a pretty good, compromise choice. Check all the benchmarks, because each benchmark shows different results. It's like horse races. A different winner every day. http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2009-desktop-cpu-charts-update-1/WinRAR-3.9-x64-Beta1,1399.html ******* Anyway, once you've selected a socket (with its impact on system price), you look for a motherboard. You look to see what connectors are on the back. Two PS/2 ports (keyboard and mouse) ? I like those, because they behave themselves. It'll always have USB2 ports, but may have a couple USB3 ports now. It'll always have at least one Ethernet port, for your Internet connection, but may possibly have two on it (good for Internet Connection Sharing, if anyone still cares about that - most people just buy a router). Could have S/PDIF optical or coax, for digital connection to an AV receiver (stereo). Could have ESATA for external hard drive. May have a Firewire (IEEE 1394) port, good for camcorder connection, or for connection to some of the older set top boxes. RS232 serial port and printer parallel port, are "old school". If you insist on them, it'll limit your motherboard choices. (On the motherboard surface, there will be SATA II disk connectors (3Gbit/sec), while a few motherboards have SATA III at 6Gbit/sec. The latter will be good some day, for SSD flash drives. SATA III wouldn't really help you with ordinary hard drives.) After you're happy with the rear connector choices, you look at the expansion slots. 1) PCI Express x16 for video. You need at least one of those. 2) PCI slots (32 bit, parallel, 133MB/sec max, old school). Mainly preferred by old farts like me, who have cards we already bought and paid for. That allows me to use my old TV tuner card. 3) PCI Express x8,x4,x1 slots. These are smaller PCI Express slots. Quite a few functions might use x1. An x1 card can fit in an x4, x8, x16 slot as well. So the larger PCI Express slots, can take cards with smaller length connectors. 4) AGP is no longer used. You can still buy video cards with the interface, for replacement tasks on older systems. 5) PCI-X is a faster/wider version of (2), typically used on older RAID server cards. Such a slot is valued by someone who wasted $500 on a RAID card, and still wants to use it. Otherwise, there might not be that much incentive to have one of those. Matrox made a few video cards with that interface, as another obscure example. You look at the slots, and imagine how you're going to fill them. Look at your "project list". Do you need a TV tuner ? What slot type(s) does it come in. How many slots can you fill on the motherboard, before the cards bump into one another. High end video cards take a slot for the connector, plus two slots next to them for the heatsink area. Low end video cards might fit within a single slot, leaving more expansion slots for other usage. Only a 3D gamer, needs those big video cards. In this picture, I can look at the slots. http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/13-157-184-Z03?$S640W$ I can put my single-slot video card, in the left-most slot. That leaves three PCI slots (133MB/sec) and three PCI Express full sized slots (a lot faster). I could put a couple dual TV tuners in two PCI Express slots, and a high end RAID in the third slot and so on. I could use a PCI slot for my favorite sound card. (The motherboard has built-in sound - if you don't like it, you plug in an add-on sound card.) If you're connecting HDMI from your video card, to an HDTV, they actually can carry sound over HDMI, to drive the tinny speakers on the side of the HDTV. So that is yet another sound option. It was intended for people with expensive home entertainment setups, so that one cable (HDMI), could carry both video and audio to the entertainment center. If the expansion slots are bunched up in certain ways, then you don't get as good usage from them. On my current motherboard, due to cables in the way and the like, I only get to use three slots practically. My video card is wasting two slots. You should be able to do better than that. That's how you start. Pick a processor socket, based on price range and performance. Look at LGA1366, LGA1156, AM3. LGA775 is just about gone now (that's what I've got). Then, check each prospective motherboard, for rear connectors (USB2, USB3, Firewire, ESATA, Ethernet, S/PDIF etc) as well as the expansion slot pattern. And don't forget to read the customer reviews for the motherboard. If a board has a bad BIOS design, is picky about memory or the like, previous customers will take note of that. Some customers will be complete idiots, so not every comment is valid. If a motherboard is really bad, you'll see a recurrent theme in the reviews. On my previous Asrock brand motherboard, the hardware was fine, but the BIOS sucked. So it happens. There are various reasons for a bad BIOS design, but too many to go into now. Pick a processor socket, a processor whose price and performance are what you're interested in, pick a motherboard, and then post back that info for comments. Paul
From: PeoplesChoice on 10 Jul 2010 19:35
On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 20:36:28 -0400, Paul <nospam(a)needed.com> wrote: >PeoplesChoice(a)Chicago.net wrote: >> I forgot to mention that I'd like to build the 'best' with quality >> components. From your email, considering the spec detail, I think that's >> where you're coming from too. >> > >I operate "strictly USENET", as this way, if the conversation >has any value, it's archived. Alternately, if someone else >has a better idea than I do (the team approach), they can >add their two cents worth. > >For example, on computer cases, there are too many of them, >for any one person to have seen them all. And when it comes >to the perception of whether stuff will fit, a person >who has actually fitted a GTX 480 into a computer lately, >has a more valuable opinion than I do. So I don't choose the box until I know what I plan to put in t. > >I'm willing to answer questions, as they arise. But I draw the >line at "writing a book" (most of my posts are book length as it >is). If you give us a snapshot as to where you're at (what >components you've selected), we can suggest stuff to watch out for. > >For example, processors come with up to six cores now This means the number of slots for memory sticks? , but there may not >be a whole lot of extra value by using such a solution. On a server, >you might get some tangible benefit from it, but on a desktop, >most of that power will be snoozing, even when gaming. We still >aren't at the point, where "six cores" is mainstream. Software >has to catch up. A quad is probably a good choice, with the clock >speed a function of the dollars you have to spend. I want speed - but I only want to pay for what I need. However, I'm hoping I can upgrade my rig in the future. > >Part of the exercise of building a system, is "learning without >getting burned". The objective, is to build a computer, without >having a lot of parts left over. That would be considered a success. >If you have a lot of trouble getting it running, then swapping in >spare parts, makes the exercise less satisfying. You can always rely >on the retailer or the manufacturer, to support the warranty, but >depending on the cost of the component, you might not want to wait >that long. The failure rate on motherboards is probably in the 3% range, >which means one builder in thirty three, has a "rough ride". Understood. > >There used to be a computer store in my town, where if you bought >the parts from them, they'd assemble it for $100 more. So that is >another alternative. The advantage in that case, is if there is >a defective component out of the box, while they're building, >they just reach for another one. That saves some of the time >involved in returning stuff to an Internet retailer. If you already >have a feeling for how well you and "electronics" or "gadgets" get >along, you may already know what risk level there will be while >building your own system. (To give an example, I don't get along >with small gasoline engines -- therefore, if someone brings me >a chainsaw to fix, I politely have to tell them to walk away. It >helps to know your own limits :-) I know how to ruin a chainsaw, >but not fix one.) I haven't yet ruled out this option. The store would have to carry (or be willing to order) the parts I want. > > Paul |