What's your guys' take on Moving Dimensions Theory? Vs. String Theory / LQG?
in [Relativity]
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From: cjcountess on 24 Nov 2009 19:54 Dre, I like your opening argument to get our attention and have your case heard. But I see it a bit differently than you. To start, single photons do not expand at c, allegedly, according to quantum theory, or surf the 4th dimension timelessly, allegedly, according to relativity. While I can see and agree with the idea of a quantity of photons emanating from a point, expanding at c spherically, single photons move in relatively straight and wavy lines, away from the point source, depending on energy level, And they also oscillate at different time cycles, also according to energy levels. And finally, as I can show that c= (sqrt -1), ic actually = c^2. That is my take on the subject, otherwise your work is very interesting. Conrad J Countess
From: dre on 27 Nov 2009 23:39 On Nov 24, 4:54 pm, cjcountess <cjcount...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Dre, > > I like your opening argument to get our attention and have your case > heard. But I see it a bit differently than you. > To start, single photons do not expand at c, allegedly, according to > quantum theory, or surf the 4th dimension timelessly, allegedly, > according to relativity. > > While I can see and agree with the idea of a quantity of photons > emanating from a point, expanding at c spherically, single photons > move in relatively straight and wavy lines, away from the point > source, depending on energy level, And they also oscillate at > different time cycles, also according to energy levels. > And finally, as I can show that c= (sqrt -1), ic actually = c^2. > That is my take on the subject, otherwise your work is very > interesting. > > Conrad J Countess Consider a double slit experiment wherein one photon is emitted at a time. An interference pattern will appear. The wave representing the photon goes through both slits. Make the slits wider and wider apart, and an interference pattern will yet appear. Th only expalnation is that a photon propagates as a sphericlaly- symmetric nonlocal probalistic wavefront. And in relativity it is a fact the time stops when an object reaches the velocity of light. Ergo photons experience no time. Einstein's 1912 Manuscript on Relativity and derives relativity from MDT's dx4/ dt=ic: Time as an Emergent Phenomenon: Traveling Back to the Heroic Age of Physics: fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/238 & fqxi.org/ community/forum/topic/432. Simple, logical proofs of MDT: MDT PROOF#1: Relativity tells us that a timeless, ageless photon remains in one place in the fourth dimension. Quantum mechanics tells us that a photon propagates as a spherically-symmetric expanding wavefront at the velocity of c. Ergo, the fourth dimension must be expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions at the rate of c, in a spherically-symmetric manner. The expansion of the fourth dimension is the source of nonlocality, entanglement, time and all its arrows and asymmetries, c, relativity, entropy, free will, and all motion, change, and measurement, for no measurement can be made without change. For the first time in the history of relativity, change has been wedded to the fundamental fabric of spacetime in MDT. MDT PROOF#2: Einstein (1912 Man. on Rel.) and Minkowski wrote x4=ict. Ergo dx4/dt=ic. MDT PROOF#3: The only way to stay stationary in the three spatial dimensions is to move at c through the fourth dimension. The only way to stay stationary in the fourth dimension is to move at c through the three spatial dimensions. Ergo the fourth dimension is moving at c relative to the three spatial dimensions. MDT twitter proof (limited to 140 characters): SR: photon is stationary in 4th dimension. QM: photon is probability wave expanding @ c. Ergo: 4th dimension expands @ c & MDT: dx4/dt=ic -from
From: dre on 18 Dec 2009 23:18 On Dec 18, 8:15 pm, dre <drell...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 27, 2:47 pm, shakespeare physics <shakespearephys...(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > What's your guys' take onMovingDimensionsTheory? Seems it has a lot > > going for it based on this table (how accurate is this table?) > > > [url]http://www.fqxi.org/data/forum-attachments/ > > Moving_Dimensions_Theory__Heros_Journey_Physics.pdf[/url] > > > [url]http://www.fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/511[/url] > > > What is Ultimately Possible in Physics? Physics! A Hero's Journey with > > Galileo, Newton, Faraday, Maxwell, Planck, Einstein, Schrodinger, > > Bohr, and the Greats towardsMovingDimensionsTheory. E pur si muove! > > by Dr. Elliot McGucken > > > ABSTRACT: > > Over the past few decades prominent physicists have noted that physics > > has diverged away from its heroic journey defined by boldly > > describing, fathoming, and characterizing foundational truths of > > physical reality via simple, elegant, logically-consistent postulates > > and equations humbling themselves before empirical reality. Herein the > > spirit of physics is again exalted by the heroic words of the Greats- > > by Galileo, Newton, Faraday, Maxwell, Planck, Einstein, Bohr, and > > Schrodinger-the Founding Fathers upon whose shoulders physics stands. > > And from that pinnacle, a novel physical theory is proposed, complete > > with a novel physical model celebrating a hitherto unsung universal > > invariant and an equation reflecting the foundational physical reality > > of a fourth dimension expanding relative to the three spatialdimensionsat the rate of c, or dx4/dt=ic, providing both the > > "elementary foundations" for relativity and QM's "characteristic > > trait"-entanglement, and its nonlocal, probabilistic nature. From > > MDT's experimentally-verified equation relativity is derived while > > time is unfrozen and free will exalted, while a physical model > > accounting for quantum nonlocality is presented. Entropy, Huygens' > > Principle; the wave/particle, energy/mass, space/time, and E/B > > dualities; and time and all its arrows and asymmetries emerge from a > > common, foundational physical model. MDT exalts Einstein's "empirical > > facts," "naturalness," and "logical simplicity." For the first time in > > the history of relativity, change is woven into the fabric of space- > > time, and the timeless, ageless, nonlocal photon of Galileo's/ > > Einstein's "empirical world" is explained via a foundational physical > > model, alongside the fact that c is both constant and the maximum > > velocity in the universe. The empirical GPS clocks' time dilation/ > > twins paradox is resolved by proposing a frame of absolute rest-the > > three spatialdimensions, and a frame of absolute motion-the fourth > > expanding dimension upon which ageless photons of zero rest mass surf; > > which underlie and give rise to Einstein's Principle of Relativity. > > > When the solution is simple, God is answering. -Einstein > > If, relative to K, K' is a uniformlymovingco-ordinate system devoid > > of rotation, then natural phenomena run their course with respect to > > K' according to exactly the same general laws as with respect to K. > > This statement is called the principle of relativity. -Einstein, 1954 > > > No great discovery was ever made without a bold guess. -Newton > > For an idea that does not at first seem insane, there is no hope. - > > Einstein > > If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the > > shoulders of giants. -Newton > > In questions of science, the authority of thousands is not worth the > > humble reasoning of one individual. -Galileo > > Books on physics are full of complicated mathematical formulae. But > > thought and ideas (the fourth dimension is expanding relative to the > > three spatialdimensionsat c), not formulae, are the beginning of > > every physical theory. -Einstein/Infeld, The Evolution of Physics > > > But before mankind could be ripe for a science which takes in the > > whole of reality, a second fundamental truth was needed, which only > > became common property among philosophers with the advent of Kepler > > and Galileo. Pure logical thinking cannot yield us any knowledge of > > the empirical world; all knowledge of reality starts from experience > > and ends in it. Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are > > completely empty as regards reality. Because Galileo saw this, and > > particularly because he drummed it into the scientific world, he is > > the father of modern physics-indeed, of modern science altogether. - > > Einstein , Ideas and Opinions > > Epur si muove - (And yet it does move.) -Galileo > > .. my dear Kepler, what do you think of the foremost philosophers of > > this University? In spite of my oft-repeated efforts and invitations, > > they have refused, with the obstinacy of a glutted adder, to look at > > the planets or Moon or my telescope. -Galileo > > A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents > > and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents > > eventually die, and a new generation grows up with it. -Planck > > ...my observations have convinced me that some men, reasoning > > preposterously, first establish some conclusion in their minds which, > > either because of its being their own or because of their having > > received it from some person who has their entire confidence, > > impresses them so deeply that one finds it impossible ever to get it > > out of their heads. Such arguments in support of their fixed idea ... > > gain their instant acceptance ... whatever is brought forward against > > it, however ingenious and conclusive, they receive with disdain or > > with hot rage ... Beside themselves with passion, some of them would > > not be backward even about scheming to suppress and silence their > > adversaries.... No good can come of dealing with such people . . . > > their company may be not only unpleasant but dangerous. -Galileo > > Millions saw the apple fall, but Newton was the one who asked why. - > > Baruch > > What is Possible in Physics? Physics!MovingDimensionsTheory > > We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both > > true and sufficient to explain their appearances. -Newton > > Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. - > > Einstein > > A physical theory can be satisfactory only if its structures are > > composed of elementary foundations. The theory of relativity is > > ultimately as little satisfactory as, for example, classical > > thermodynamics was before Boltzmann had interpreted the entropy as > > probability. -Einstein > > When two systems, of which we know the states by their respective > > representatives, enter into temporary physical interaction due to > > known forces between them, and when after a time of mutual influence > > the systems separate again, then they can no longer be described in > > the same way as before, viz. by endowing each of them with a > > representative of its own. I would not call that one but rather the > > characteristic trait of quantum mechanics, the one that enforces its > > entire departure from classical lines of thought. By the interaction > > the two representatives [the quantum states] have become entangled. - > > Schrodinger > > MDT provides both the "elementary foundations" of relativity that > > Einstein yet sought, and the foundational physical reality underlying > > and causing quantum nonlocality and entanglement, which Schrodinger > > labeled the "characteristic trait" of QM. Einstein's Principle of > > Relativity, as well as his two postulates, derive from MDT's simple > > physical model (Fig. 1) and single postulate which is more concise and > > has the added benefits of providing for free will, liberating us from > > the block universe, weaving change into the fundamental fabric of > > space-time for the first time in the history of relativity, and > > providing an elementary, foundational physical model for time and all > > its arrows and asymmetries, entropy, and QM's nonlocality and > > entanglement, as well as reality's probabilistic nature. The fourth > > dimension is inherently nonlocal via its invariant expansion, which is > > the source of nonlocality as well as relativity. All of this is more > > fully developed in Dr. E's 2008 paper on MDT which examines Einstein's > > 1912 Manuscript on Relativity and derives relativity from MDT's dx4/ > > dt=ic: Time as an Emergent Phenomenon: Traveling Back to the Heroic > > Age of Physics: fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/238 & fqxi.org/ > > community/forum/topic/432. > > Simple, logical proofs of MDT: > > > MDT PROOF#1: Relativity tells us that a timeless, ageless photon > > remains in one place in the fourth dimension. Quantum mechanics tells > > us that a photon propagates as a spherically-symmetric expanding > > wavefront at the velocity of c. Ergo, the fourth dimension must be > > expanding relative to the three spatialdimensionsat the rate of c, > > in a spherically-symmetric manner. The expansion of the fourth > > dimension is the source of nonlocality, entanglement, time and all its > > arrows and asymmetries, c, relativity, entropy, free will, and all > > motion, change, and measurement, for no measurement can be made > > without change. For the first time in the history of relativity, > > change has been wedded to the fundamental fabric of spacetime in MDT. > > MDT PROOF#2: Einstein (1912 Man. on Rel.) and Minkowski wrote x4=ict. > > Ergo dx4/dt=ic. > > MDT PROOF#3: The only way to stay stationary in the three spatialdimensionsis to move at c through the fourth dimension. The only way > > to stay stationary in the fourth dimension is to move at c through the > > three spatialdimensions. Ergo the fourth dimension ismovingat c > > relative to the three spatialdimensions. > > MDT twitter proof (limited to 140 characters): SR: photon is > > stationary in 4th dimension. QM: photon is probability wave expanding > > @ c. Ergo: 4th dimension expands @ c & MDT: dx4/dt=ic -from [url]http://twitter.com/45surf[/url] > > > A people that were to honor falsehood, defamation, fraud, and murder > > would be unable, indeed, to subsist for very long. -Einstein > > > MDT Sides With the Simplicity of the Heroic Greats in Word, Equation, > > and Deed > > MDT > > ... > > read more » Consider a double slit experiment wherein one photon is emitted at a time. An interference pattern will appear. The wave representing the photon goes through both slits. Make the slits wider and wider apart, and an interference pattern will yet appear. Th only expalnation is that a photon propagates as a sphericlaly- symmetric nonlocal probalistic wavefront. And in relativity it is a fact the time stops when an object reaches the velocity of light. Ergo photons experience no time. Einstein's 1912 Manuscript on Relativity and derives relativity from MDT's dx4/ dt=ic: Time as an Emergent Phenomenon: Traveling Back to the Heroic Age of Physics: fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/238 & fqxi.org/ community/forum/topic/432. Simple, logical proofs of MDT: MDT PROOF#1: Relativity tells us that a timeless, ageless photon remains in one place in the fourth dimension. Quantum mechanics tells us that a photon propagates as a spherically-symmetric expanding wavefront at the velocity of c. Ergo, the fourth dimension must be expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions at the rate of c, in a spherically-symmetric manner. The expansion of the fourth dimension is the source of nonlocality, entanglement, time and all its arrows and asymmetries, c, relativity, entropy, free will, and all motion, change, and measurement, for no measurement can be made without change. For the first time in the history of relativity, change has been wedded to the fundamental fabric of spacetime in MDT. MDT PROOF#2: Einstein (1912 Man. on Rel.) and Minkowski wrote x4=ict. Ergo dx4/dt=ic. MDT PROOF#3: The only way to stay stationary in the three spatial dimensions is to move at c through the fourth dimension. The only way to stay stationary in the fourth dimension is to move at c through the three spatial dimensions. Ergo the fourth dimension is moving at c relative to the three spatial dimensions. MDT twitter proof (limited to 140 characters): SR: photon is stationary in 4th dimension. QM: photon is probability wave expanding @ c. Ergo: 4th dimension expands @ c & MDT: dx4/dt=ic -from
From: dre on 21 Dec 2009 15:22
On Dec 18, 8:18 pm, dre <drell...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Dec 18, 8:15 pm, dre <drell...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Oct 27, 2:47 pm, shakespeare physics <shakespearephys...(a)gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > What's your guys' take onMovingDimensionsTheory? Seems it has a lot > > > going for it based on this table (how accurate is this table?) > > > > [url]http://www.fqxi.org/data/forum-attachments/ > > > Moving_Dimensions_Theory__Heros_Journey_Physics.pdf[/url] > > > > [url]http://www.fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/511[/url] > > > > What is Ultimately Possible in Physics? Physics! A Hero's Journey with > > > Galileo, Newton, Faraday, Maxwell, Planck, Einstein, Schrodinger, > > > Bohr, and the Greats towardsMovingDimensionsTheory. E pur si muove! > > > by Dr. Elliot McGucken > > > > ABSTRACT: > > > Over the past few decades prominent physicists have noted that physics > > > has diverged away from its heroic journey defined by boldly > > > describing, fathoming, and characterizing foundational truths of > > > physical reality via simple, elegant, logically-consistent postulates > > > and equations humbling themselves before empirical reality. Herein the > > > spirit of physics is again exalted by the heroic words of the Greats- > > > by Galileo, Newton, Faraday, Maxwell, Planck, Einstein, Bohr, and > > > Schrodinger-the Founding Fathers upon whose shoulders physics stands. > > > And from that pinnacle, a novel physicaltheoryis proposed, complete > > > with a novel physical model celebrating a hitherto unsung universal > > > invariant and an equation reflecting the foundational physical reality > > > of a fourth dimension expanding relative to the three spatialdimensionsat the rate of c, or dx4/dt=ic, providing both the > > > "elementary foundations" for relativity and QM's "characteristic > > > trait"-entanglement, and its nonlocal, probabilistic nature. From > > > MDT's experimentally-verified equation relativity is derived while > > > time is unfrozen and free will exalted, while a physical model > > > accounting for quantum nonlocality is presented. Entropy, Huygens' > > > Principle; the wave/particle, energy/mass, space/time, and E/B > > > dualities; and time and all its arrows and asymmetries emerge from a > > > common, foundational physical model. MDT exalts Einstein's "empirical > > > facts," "naturalness," and "logical simplicity." For the first time in > > > the history of relativity, change is woven into the fabric of space- > > > time, and the timeless, ageless, nonlocal photon of Galileo's/ > > > Einstein's "empirical world" is explained via a foundational physical > > > model, alongside the fact that c is both constant and the maximum > > > velocity in the universe. The empirical GPS clocks' time dilation/ > > > twins paradox is resolved by proposing a frame of absolute rest-the > > > three spatialdimensions, and a frame of absolute motion-the fourth > > > expanding dimension upon which ageless photons of zero rest mass surf; > > > which underlie and give rise to Einstein's Principle of Relativity. > > > > When the solution is simple, God is answering. -Einstein > > > If, relative to K, K' is a uniformlymovingco-ordinate system devoid > > > of rotation, then natural phenomena run their course with respect to > > > K' according to exactly the same general laws as with respect to K. > > > This statement is called the principle of relativity. -Einstein, 1954 > > > > No great discovery was ever made without a bold guess. -Newton > > > For an idea that does not at first seem insane, there is no hope. - > > > Einstein > > > If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the > > > shoulders of giants. -Newton > > > In questions of science, the authority of thousands is not worth the > > > humble reasoning of one individual. -Galileo > > > Books on physics are full of complicated mathematical formulae. But > > > thought and ideas (the fourth dimension is expanding relative to the > > > three spatialdimensionsat c), not formulae, are the beginning of > > > every physicaltheory. -Einstein/Infeld, The Evolution of Physics > > > > But before mankind could be ripe for a science which takes in the > > > whole of reality, a second fundamental truth was needed, which only > > > became common property among philosophers with the advent of Kepler > > > and Galileo. Pure logical thinking cannot yield us any knowledge of > > > the empirical world; all knowledge of reality starts from experience > > > and ends in it. Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are > > > completely empty as regards reality. Because Galileo saw this, and > > > particularly because he drummed it into the scientific world, he is > > > the father of modern physics-indeed, of modern science altogether. - > > > Einstein , Ideas and Opinions > > > Epur si muove - (And yet it does move.) -Galileo > > > .. my dear Kepler, what do you think of the foremost philosophers of > > > this University? In spite of my oft-repeated efforts and invitations, > > > they have refused, with the obstinacy of a glutted adder, to look at > > > the planets or Moon or my telescope. -Galileo > > > A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents > > > and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents > > > eventually die, and a new generation grows up with it. -Planck > > > ...my observations have convinced me that some men, reasoning > > > preposterously, first establish some conclusion in their minds which, > > > either because of its being their own or because of their having > > > received it from some person who has their entire confidence, > > > impresses them so deeply that one finds it impossible ever to get it > > > out of their heads. Such arguments in support of their fixed idea ... > > > gain their instant acceptance ... whatever is brought forward against > > > it, however ingenious and conclusive, they receive with disdain or > > > with hot rage ... Beside themselves with passion, some of them would > > > not be backward even about scheming to suppress and silence their > > > adversaries.... No good can come of dealing with such people . . . > > > their company may be not only unpleasant but dangerous. -Galileo > > > Millions saw the apple fall, but Newton was the one who asked why. - > > > Baruch > > > What is Possible in Physics? Physics!MovingDimensionsTheory > > > We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both > > > true and sufficient to explain their appearances. -Newton > > > Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. - > > > Einstein > > > A physicaltheorycan be satisfactory only if its structures are > > > composed of elementary foundations. Thetheoryof relativity is > > > ultimately as little satisfactory as, for example, classical > > > thermodynamics was before Boltzmann had interpreted the entropy as > > > probability. -Einstein > > > When two systems, of which we know the states by their respective > > > representatives, enter into temporary physical interaction due to > > > known forces between them, and when after a time of mutual influence > > > the systems separate again, then they can no longer be described in > > > the same way as before, viz. by endowing each of them with a > > > representative of its own. I would not call that one but rather the > > > characteristic trait of quantum mechanics, the one that enforces its > > > entire departure from classical lines of thought. By the interaction > > > the two representatives [the quantum states] have become entangled. - > > > Schrodinger > > > MDT provides both the "elementary foundations" of relativity that > > > Einstein yet sought, and the foundational physical reality underlying > > > and causing quantum nonlocality and entanglement, which Schrodinger > > > labeled the "characteristic trait" of QM. Einstein's Principle of > > > Relativity, as well as his two postulates, derive from MDT's simple > > > physical model (Fig. 1) and single postulate which is more concise and > > > has the added benefits of providing for free will, liberating us from > > > the block universe, weaving change into the fundamental fabric of > > > space-time for the first time in the history of relativity, and > > > providing an elementary, foundational physical model for time and all > > > its arrows and asymmetries, entropy, and QM's nonlocality and > > > entanglement, as well as reality's probabilistic nature. The fourth > > > dimension is inherently nonlocal via its invariant expansion, which is > > > the source of nonlocality as well as relativity. All of this is more > > > fully developed in Dr. E's 2008 paper on MDT which examines Einstein's > > > 1912 Manuscript on Relativity and derives relativity from MDT's dx4/ > > > dt=ic: Time as an Emergent Phenomenon: Traveling Back to the Heroic > > > Age of Physics: fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/238 & fqxi.org/ > > > community/forum/topic/432. > > > Simple, logical proofs of MDT: > > > > MDT PROOF#1: Relativity tells us that a timeless, ageless photon > > > remains in one place in the fourth dimension. Quantum mechanics tells > > > us that a photon propagates as a spherically-symmetric expanding > > > wavefront at the velocity of c. Ergo, the fourth dimension must be > > > expanding relative to the three spatialdimensionsat the rate of c, > > > in a spherically-symmetric manner. The expansion of the fourth > > > dimension is the source of nonlocality, entanglement, time and all its > > > arrows and asymmetries, c, relativity, entropy, free will, and all > > > motion, change, and measurement, for no measurement can be made > > > without change. For the first time in the history of relativity, > > > change has been wedded to the fundamental fabric of spacetime in MDT. > > > MDT PROOF#2: Einstein (1912 Man. on Rel.) and Minkowski wrote x4=ict. > > > Ergo dx4/dt=ic. > > > MDT PROOF#3: The only way to stay stationary in the three spatialdimensionsis to move at c through the fourth dimension. The only way > > > to stay stationary in the fourth dimension is to move at c through the > > > three spatialdimensions. Ergo the fourth dimension ismovingat c > > > relative to the three spatialdimensions. > > > MDT twitter proof (limited to 140 characters): SR: photon is > > > stationary in 4th dimension. QM: photon is > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Hello Conrad, In its simplest form in free space, a photon is represented by a spherically-symetric probabilistic wavefront. Surely you have heard of Huygens' Principle and Young's Double Slit Experiment? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huygens%E2%80%93Fresnel_principle In relativity a photon remains stationary in the fourth dimension. A photon is timeless and ageless. Surely you have heard of Einstein's Relativity? Can anyone refute any of these proofs? "Simple, logical proofs of MDT: MDT PROOF#1: Relativity tells us that a timeless, ageless photon remains in one place in the fourth dimension. Quantum mechanics tells us that a photon propagates as a spherically-symmetric expanding wavefront at the velocity of c. Ergo, the fourth dimension must be expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions at the rate of c, in a spherically-symmetric manner. The expansion of the fourth dimension is the source of nonlocality, entanglement, time and all its arrows and asymmetries, c, relativity, entropy, free will, and all motion, change, and measurement, for no measurement can be made without change. For the first time in the history of relativity, change has been wedded to the fundamental fabric of spacetime in MDT. MDT PROOF#2: Einstein (1912 Man. on Rel.) and Minkowski wrote x4=ict. Ergo dx4/dt=ic. MDT PROOF#3: The only way to stay stationary in the three spatial dimensions is to move at c through the fourth dimension. The only way to stay stationary in the fourth dimension is to move at c through the three spatial dimensions. Ergo the fourth dimension is moving at c relative to the three spatial dimensions. MDT twitter proof (limited to 140 characters): SR: photon is stationary in 4th dimension. QM: photon is probability wave expanding @ c. Ergo: 4th dimension expands @ c & MDT: dx4/dt=ic -from [url] http://twitter.com/45surf[/url] " |