What would cause an internal HD to simply disappear in Windows?
in [Storage]
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From: Arno on 26 Mar 2010 08:28 Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups(a)ntlworld.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> There is no disc controller on the motherboard with IDE drives. >>> That's what Integrated Drive Electronics means, after all. Turn your >>> disc unit over. See the chips and circuitry? That's where the disc >>> controller is. The motherboard contains merely a PCI-to-ATA bridge. >>> >> Yes, yes, we all know that, [...] >> > Apparently not. M. Arno and M. Speed don't, it seems. It's > disappointing in the former case. I just happen to know what a bridge is and what a controller is. That it is a "disk communications controller" does not really matter here. But a bridge would never need a driver for anything, as it is invisible on the software side (whith the exception of timing effects). Also addressing on the PCI bus is different from ATA addressing, which also means it cannot be only a bridge. Incidentially, this question is besides the point. Arno -- Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: arno(a)wagner.name GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F ---- Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans
From: Jonathan de Boyne Pollard on 26 Mar 2010 23:50 > >>>> >>>> There is no disc controller on the motherboard with IDE drives. >>>> That's what Integrated Drive Electronics means, after all. Turn >>>> your disc unit over. See the chips and circuitry? That's where the >>>> disc controller is. The motherboard contains merely a PCI-to-ATA >>>> bridge. >>>> >>> Yes, yes, we all know that, [...] >>> >> Apparently not. M. Arno and M. Speed don't, it seems. It's >> disappointing in the former case. >> > I just happen to know what a bridge is and what a controller is. > No, kiddo, you really don't in this case. And as I said, that's disappointing in your case. Think! If ever you find yourself with the same (mis-)understanding of hardware as Rod Speed has, alarm bells should be going off. > That it is a "disk communications controller" does not really matter > here. But a bridge would never need a driver for anything, as it is > invisible on the software side (whith the exception of timing effects). > I've news for you. Not only do PCI-to-ATA bridges have drivers, but even PCI-to-PCI bridges have drivers. On Windows NT, for example, the latter are driven by the PCI.sys driver. The idea that bridges don't need drivers is not in accordance with what you'll find actually happening on your PC. And the consequent idea that if something has a driver it cannot be a bridge is, accordingly, nonsense. > Also addressing on the PCI bus is different from ATA addressing, which > also means it cannot be only a bridge. > Two different buses bridged together aren't required to have the same addressing, kiddo. That's often the point of their being two different buses that require a bridge connecting them.
From: Yousuf Khan on 27 Mar 2010 19:35 Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote: >> >>> >>> There is no disc controller on the motherboard with IDE drives. >>> That's what Integrated Drive Electronics means, after all. Turn your >>> disc unit over. See the chips and circuitry? That's where the disc >>> controller is. The motherboard contains merely a PCI-to-ATA bridge. >>> >> Yes, yes, we all know that, [...] >> > Apparently not. M. Arno and M. Speed don't, it seems. It's > disappointing in the former case. If you're going to be completely pedantic about it, and continue on with the networking analogy, then "bridge" isn't necessarily the right term either. In the case of a RAID arrangement, then it's acting more like router. In the case of an ATAPI device, it's acting more like a gateway. Yousuf Khan
From: Jonathan de Boyne Pollard on 28 Mar 2010 03:51 > >>>> >>>> There is no disc controller on the motherboard with IDE drives. >>>> That's what Integrated Drive Electronics means, after all. Turn >>>> your disc unit over. See the chips and circuitry? That's where >>>> the disc controller is. The motherboard contains merely a >>>> PCI-to-ATA bridge. >>>> >>> Yes, yes, we all know that, [...] >>> >> Apparently not. M. Arno and M. Speed don't, it seems. It's >> disappointing in the former case. >> > If you're going to be completely pedantic about it, and continue on > with the networking analogy, [...] > It's not a networking analogy. Things that connect computer buses are known as bridges, bus bridges if there's scope for confusion with any other sorts of bridges. There are many sorts, because many computer buses have been connected together over the years, from Unibus to the VESA Local Bus. In the world of PCI we have PCI-to-ISA bridges, PCI-to-ATA bridges, PCI-to-PCI bridges, and of course the bridge between PCI bus 0 and the processor bus. > In the case of an ATAPI device, [...] > In the case of an ATAPI device, the actual bus is still an ATA bus. The bus itself isn't any different. (If it were, after all, one wouldn't be able to correctly connect the device to the cable.) Nor is the PCI-to-ATA bridge connecting it to the PCI bus any different. The difference between ATA and ATAPI is in the disc unit itself, at the disc unit command level and (to a lesser extent) the disc unit device register level, not at the bus level. The bus is the same, and the bridge is the same.
From: Arno on 28 Mar 2010 11:10
Yousuf Khan <bbbl67(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> There is no disc controller on the motherboard with IDE drives. >>>> That's what Integrated Drive Electronics means, after all. Turn your >>>> disc unit over. See the chips and circuitry? That's where the disc >>>> controller is. The motherboard contains merely a PCI-to-ATA bridge. >>>> >>> Yes, yes, we all know that, [...] >>> >> Apparently not. M. Arno and M. Speed don't, it seems. It's >> disappointing in the former case. > If you're going to be completely pedantic about it, and continue on with > the networking analogy, then "bridge" isn't necessarily the right term > either. In the case of a RAID arrangement, then it's acting more like > router. In the case of an ATAPI device, it's acting more like a gateway. Indeed. A bridge is ISO/OSI layer 2, which means same addressing on both sides, but potentially different speeds, collision domains or bus access arbitration. An important factor is here that both connected networks can initiate transfers and are generally considered to be on the same hierachical level. I agree on the router and gateway analogy. As addressing is different on PCI and (S)ATA, and the disks are certainly not on the same hierachical level as the computer side, the term "bridge" goes out the window. In a hierachical situation the device is generally called a "controller", since it has power over what is attached to it, i.e. "controls" it. With regard to ISO/OSI layers, "bridge" would also not qualify, as due to DMA, NCQ, etc., the PC side disk controller is at least on Layer 3, possibly higher. Arno -- Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: arno(a)wagner.name GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F ---- Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans |