From: Stephen Howe on
I don't work for Microsoft and am not an MVP.
But your position is not reasonable.

> Historically, I've been trying to learn about threads, ran across a
> sample program with the header file atlstr.h which I couldn't find,
> hence the sample did not compile.

So?

I ran across a sample DOS program. At one time Microsoft supported
generation of DOS programs. Should I claim VStudio is incomplete because I
cannot produce DOS programs?

I ran across a sample OS/2 program. At one time Microsoft supported
generation of OS/2 programs. Should I claim VStudio is incomplete because I
cannot produce OS/2 programs?

I ran across a sample Win32s program. At one time Microsoft supported
generation of Win32s programs (VC 4.0 was last one). Should I claim VStudio
is incomplete because I cannot produce Win32s programs any more?

You will find that with each generation of Visual Studio, things are being
dropped off, usually the stuff for producing executables many generations
ago. That is perfectly normal.

> For 3 days now I have been trying to find atlstr.h

Then I would fire you. 3 days is too long.

> The description of this massive quantity of time consuming download
> described itself as "complete" and "all that is necessary to".

Right. But when you say "complete", is it your understanding that the
compiler is capable of producing all executable types, for all Microsoft
OS's, right back to DOS 1.0? That is probably not your understanding.
"Complete" may mean (and this is my understanding), that it contains all
that is necessary to produce .NET programs, nothing more. Or Win32 programs,
nothing more. And that may mean no-frills tools. I think you are being naive
or disingenous to think otherwise.

> So I
> spent the time to download them and install them, only to find that
> something is still missing. Something that MS still does not tell me
> where it is. So how do I trust that *if* I pay for some "undefined"
> software; I will get what I need, and there won't be one more missing
> piece? I can't.

MFC & ATL are just icing on the cake.
They are *NOT* necessary to produce Win32 programs.
And every bit of their functionality can be duplicated for any Win32
program.
And they are certainly *NOT* necessary to study threading in Windows.

> As a sensible person I was under the impression that what I had *was*
> crippled enough. Having a lousy line command compiler...

I don't think it is lousy.
It is pretty close to the ISO C++ standard
It produces damn good optimisation
And VStudio Express is free.
To me, it is outrageous, simple outrageous that you grumble.

> *and* no IDE and
> no coherent documentation.

There is online documentation. It is not perfect, no, but it is reasonable.

> I was perfectly willing to use these obnoxious tools to learn enough to
see if this is an area I wish to
> invest in. In order to do this learning I found sample programs - at
> the source of Windows: MS website - which were not useable for me. AND
> more importantly, please listen to this, I don't know what I need, or
> don't have.

As said, MFC & ATL are icing on the cake. The sample programs use them. But
they are not necessary, just convienent. The old adage holds good: If you
want everything, you have to pay for it.
Everybody knows (apart from you) that cut-down tools usually have reduced
functionality.

> I am startled that this information is either not
> known at MS, or worse, purposely obfuscated.

Not really. I found out, from the FAQ, that VStudio Express did not come
with MFC & ATL after 10 minutes checking. I purposely looked at the FAQ
becuase I was sure Microsoft had left something out and I wanted to find out
what it was. Why didn't you?

> It has taken much time and the valuable help, luckily supplied by
> people like yourself...

<laugh> Well those people are criticising you for your naive expectatations.

>..., to tell me what Microsoft should have already
> told me and had as ready information for their potential customers. I
> must be very old fashioned to think that it is the VENDOR's
> responsibility to educate their consumer.

You must be walking around in diapers or nappys to expect Microsoft to
permanently hold your hand.

Stephen Howe


From: Stephen Howe on
> Let's be unambiguous shall we? In order to get ATL and MFC, you must get
one
> of the following three:
>
> 1. Visual Studio Standard
> 2. Visual Studio Professional
> 3. Visual Studio Team System (which comes in several versions)

Yes okay John.
I 100% agree with you.
Sorry for the lack of clarity. And thanks for your clarity (seems a rare
commodity these days)

Stephen Howe






From: Robert Macy on
Thank you for confirming what I'm am just starting to realize.

When the description of the download says, "Everything you will need
to..." don't believe it.

Why, on my search for atlstr.h during my FIRST visit, and many
subsequent visits, to Microsoft didn't MS have the courtesy, or
intelligence, to tell me that?

Is this company so disorganized or their product so out of control that
such important information must come from third parties?

....rhetorical questions

- Robert -

From: Alex Blekhman on
Robert Macy wrote:
> Thank you for confirming what I'm am just starting to
> realize.
>
> When the description of the download says, "Everything
> you will need to..." don't believe it.
>
> Why, on my search for atlstr.h during my FIRST visit, and
> many subsequent visits, to Microsoft didn't MS have the
> courtesy, or intelligence, to tell me that?
>
> Is this company so disorganized or their product so out
> of control that such important information must come from
> third parties?


"Visual C++ 2005 Express FAQ"
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/support/faq/#vcpp

See answer 42. (It's not a joke.)


From: Robert Macy on
....uh, at risk of killing the frog, I don't get it.

- Robert -