Alternatives to Cakewalk TTS-1
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From: Cap'n Ron on 15 Apr 2007 14:12 Hey Nil, All of my files are Midi format 1, but I do have all midis playing through the Yamaha softsynth. This is the first attempt at trying multiple softsynths for different tracks. So far I don't like it. The thing about nudging the track to line things up sounds interesting. Are you talking about moving the midi info around? That shouldn't be the problem, because I can play the entire song through the Yamaha synth without any issues. I only have lag when I insert a DXI. Is there a way to alter latency of the inserted DXI, or maybe slowing down the Yamaha so the VSC can keep up? Thanks, Cap'n Ron > Are all your MIDI parts contained in one track? If so, it was probably > imported from a Type 0 MIDI file. Type 1 MIDIs have each instrument on > a separate track. > > If the former, it sounds like the part you're missing is to split the > guitar track out of your all-inclusive track into a separate one. Then > you can assign the guitar track to its own softsynth, and let all the > other instruments be taken care of by the VSC. > > The guitar track is certain to have been assigned its own MIDI channel. > Therefore, you can use Edit | Select | By filter (using the filter to > select all the notes that have been assigned to that particular > channel) to extract the guitar part and paste it to it's own track. > >> Anyway, finally got sound, but when I play the entire song, the >> midi tracks and this new VSC track just don't sync up right. At >> about 1 a.m I started to read about midi clocks and audio engines, >> but I couldn't stay awake. Am I heading the right direction. > > It's possible they could out of sync, but not likely. It would be more > likely if one track were routed to an external hardware synth, or maybe > Window's built-in synthesizer. But in any case, if you think one track > is a little out of sync, Sonar allows you to nudge it forward or > backward in time.
From: Sue Morton on 15 Apr 2007 15:30 Answers inline... -- Sue Morton "Cap'n Ron" <Cap'nRon(a)NOSPAM88.com> wrote in message news:mpsUh.3290$Wm.2443(a)bignews5.bellsouth.net... >A lot of great info, but a couple of questions still: > > 1. Midi track - output to VSC for example, should the patch(instrument) > selected be "none" and the instrument selected on the VSC the one I really > want? Seems that Nylon gtr. on the midi conflicts with Hawaiian gtr. on > the synth. There is no patch in one and patch in the other. Your midi track, if 'none' on the track view in Sonar, probably has an embedded patch instruction inside the MIDI stream along with the notes etc. You want the MIDI track to send the correct information to the synth, whether from within the MIDI stream (harder) or from the track properties (easier, if only 1 instrument there). Keep in mind, the TTS-1 is *not* GM/GS midi standard, so you may be hearing a different sound from it for the instrument you *think* you are asking for, because it's not in the same place on the TTS-1. You need to send the patch AND bank that correctly selects the sound you want, from the synth. > > 2. I have midi tracks in the song, so I don't insert new ones as you > said. However, don't I have to insert the audio track when I insert the > DXI synth? Yes if you don't already have one, that is the audio track the synth lives on. If you already have one, it can be 'converted' to be a synth audio track. Usually it is better to let the 'wizard' insert one for you. > 3. Syncing - It seems that when I do get this to work, the Yamaha synth > is playing all the other tracks while the VSC is playing the guitar track. > However, the music played back doesn't sound in time. The guitar track is > slightly behind I believe. Is there a possible Audio Engine setting I > have wrong? After having moved on to #4, I think this is not sync but latency. Sonar will have some latency to the sound rendered by the TTS-1 or other Sonar-driven synth. Sending the MIDI stream outside Sonar will not involve Sonar's latency, but whatever exists outside Sonar. They will never match easily. Stay inside Sonar to be able to control this for now. You can learn how to mix and match later... > 4. Do I have an issue with the Yamaha set as my Global output device for > all midi in the Tools section? Does the VSC override this global setting > for the guitar track only? By 'Yamaha' do you mean the Windows softsynth? This is external to Sonar. You can route your signal exclusively out of Sonar, out Sonar *and* to a Sonar-driven synth like the TTS-1, or only to a Sonar-driven synth. I'm not sure what you're referring to as a 'default' -- I am not aware of any 'default' but then I always populate all my MIDI and synth parameters. > > Okay, that's enough questions for now. Thanks for taking the time to make > such a lengthy response. You help is appreciated very much. > > Cap'n Ron
From: Nil on 15 Apr 2007 16:05 On 15 Apr 2007, "Cap'n Ron" <Cap'nRon(a)NOSPAM88.com> wrote in cakewalk.audio: > All of my files are Midi format 1, but I do have all midis playing > through the Yamaha softsynth. This is the first attempt at trying > multiple softsynths for different tracks. So far I don't like it. What is this Yahaha softsynth? Did it come bundles with Sonar, or did you acquire it otherwise? I don't have it, and I have several versions of Sonar. I suggest you use a GM synth that I know works, namely the Cakewalk TTS-1 or the Edirol VSC, if you have it. If you don't like the guitar sound those produce, you could try a guitar soundfont, hosted by sfz (if you own a VST wrapper) or Live Synth Pro (which came with early versions of Sonar). You might be able to find some reasonably natural- sounding guitar sound fonts. Personally I haven't, but since I'm a guitarist, I just play my own. So, an example could be: - add both your GM synth (TSS-1) and the soundfont player (or other soft synth) to Sonar's Synth Rack. When you add them, you will be given the option to Create the First Synth Audio Output. That will create an audio track in Sonar so you can control it's volume and other properties. De-select the option to Create MIDI Track, since they already exist in the project. - Make sure each MIDI track is dedicated to a single MIDI channel. Drums are usually assigned to channel 10. - Then you just direct the output your MIDI tracks to whichever soft synth you like - in your case, maybe, all MIDI tracks would go to the TSS-1, except for the guitar track, which would be outputted to the sound font player. > The thing about nudging the track to line things up sounds > interesting. Are you talking about moving the midi info around? > That shouldn't be the problem, because I can play the entire song > through the Yamaha synth without any issues. I only have lag when > I insert a DXI. Is there a way to alter latency of the inserted > DXI, or maybe slowing down the Yamaha so the VSC can keep up? Yes, I'm talking about moving the MIDI track around. Not it shouldn't be necessary, but it's a valid workaround. There's a control in Sonar 5 to offset the MIDI time up and back, but I think I recall that that control wasn't in the earliest versions of Sonar. Look in the help for Track-Property-Time.
From: Cap'n Ron on 15 Apr 2007 16:51 Sorry, I thought you caught the first part of this query. I'll quickly summarize: Sonar 2.0Xl with Yamaha S-YXG 50 softsynth as the midi device output. All midi is format 1 with all tracks playing through the S-YXG50. I just wanted to try some different synths on the guitar tracks that already exist, because that is the only area that sounds weak. The midi track properties show, for example, "nylon guitar" as the patch, bank is "---" and Out is "1-yamaha xg wdm softsynthesizer". This is before adding the Virtual Sound Canvas or any other synth. After adding the VSC, I can now see a VSC window that shows all 16 tracks (with piano 1 as the instruments on all 16 tracks). I then change the original midi track's "Out" to the VSC. The patch then changes to "24" rather than saying "nylon guitar". I can change this number to some other number/patch, but I no longer see the actual instrument's name, just numbers to pick from. Also, on the VSC window, I can pick a new patch for that track and I see the actual instrument names. The problem is that the original midi track doesn't update the patch name from "24" to whatever I have picked. That is what I meant by a conflict. The midi info (notes) is going through the VSC and playing the new instrument, but it seems like I should be saving this new patch info somewhere permanent. The other issue was the latency problem. How to do adjust for that in this situation? It would seem that the Yamaha softsynth is faster than the VSC, so should I slow it down or try to somehow "speed up" the VSC? Thanks for bearing with me, I hope I have cleared up the question. "Sue Morton" <867-5309(a)domain.invalid> wrote in message news:O3vUh.550$iZ5.277(a)newssvr22.news.prodigy.net... > Answers inline... > -- > Sue Morton > > "Cap'n Ron" <Cap'nRon(a)NOSPAM88.com> wrote in message > news:mpsUh.3290$Wm.2443(a)bignews5.bellsouth.net... >>A lot of great info, but a couple of questions still: >> >> 1. Midi track - output to VSC for example, should the patch(instrument) >> selected be "none" and the instrument selected on the VSC the one I >> really want? Seems that Nylon gtr. on the midi conflicts with Hawaiian >> gtr. on the synth. > > There is no patch in one and patch in the other. Your midi track, if > 'none' on the track view in Sonar, probably has an embedded patch > instruction inside the MIDI stream along with the notes etc. > > You want the MIDI track to send the correct information to the synth, > whether from within the MIDI stream (harder) or from the track properties > (easier, if only 1 instrument there). Keep in mind, the TTS-1 is *not* > GM/GS midi standard, so you may be hearing a different sound from it for > the instrument you *think* you are asking for, because it's not in the > same place on the TTS-1. You need to send the patch AND bank that > correctly selects the sound you want, from the synth. > >> >> 2. I have midi tracks in the song, so I don't insert new ones as you >> said. However, don't I have to insert the audio track when I insert the >> DXI synth? > > Yes if you don't already have one, that is the audio track the synth lives > on. If you already have one, it can be 'converted' to be a synth audio > track. Usually it is better to let the 'wizard' insert one for you. > > >> 3. Syncing - It seems that when I do get this to work, the Yamaha synth >> is playing all the other tracks while the VSC is playing the guitar >> track. However, the music played back doesn't sound in time. The guitar >> track is slightly behind I believe. Is there a possible Audio Engine >> setting I have wrong? > > After having moved on to #4, I think this is not sync but latency. Sonar > will have some latency to the sound rendered by the TTS-1 or other > Sonar-driven synth. Sending the MIDI stream outside Sonar will not > involve Sonar's latency, but whatever exists outside Sonar. They will > never match easily. Stay inside Sonar to be able to control this for now. > You can learn how to mix and match later... > >> 4. Do I have an issue with the Yamaha set as my Global output device for >> all midi in the Tools section? Does the VSC override this global setting >> for the guitar track only? > > By 'Yamaha' do you mean the Windows softsynth? This is external to Sonar. > You can route your signal exclusively out of Sonar, out Sonar *and* to a > Sonar-driven synth like the TTS-1, or only to a Sonar-driven synth. I'm > not sure what you're referring to as a 'default' -- I am not aware of any > 'default' but then I always populate all my MIDI and synth parameters. > >> >> Okay, that's enough questions for now. Thanks for taking the time to >> make such a lengthy response. You help is appreciated very much. >> >> Cap'n Ron > >
From: Cap'n Ron on 15 Apr 2007 17:16
The Yamaha S-YX50 is a standalone softsynth that I have all tracks output to. It is no longer sold by Yamaha. It did not come with any version of Sonar/Cakewalk that I know of, but overall it sounds much better to me than the synths that did come with Sonar 2.0 (except for those guitar parts). I believe with your help and Sue's, we have determined that there is a latency issue when I apply another softsynth to a project. I will work on solutions for that, and I am also going to start researching guitar soundfonts as you suggested. I too play guitar along with my midi files, but I mostly play rhythym, so I need that lead guitar in the mix. Thanks for your help and suggestions, Cap'n Ron > What is this Yahaha softsynth? Did it come bundles with Sonar, or did > you acquire it otherwise? I don't have it, and I have several versions > of Sonar. > > I suggest you use a GM synth that I know works, namely the Cakewalk > TTS-1 or the Edirol VSC, if you have it. If you don't like the guitar > sound those produce, you could try a guitar soundfont, hosted by sfz > (if you own a VST wrapper) or Live Synth Pro (which came with early > versions of Sonar). You might be able to find some reasonably natural- > sounding guitar sound fonts. Personally I haven't, but since I'm a > guitarist, I just play my own. > > So, an example could be: > > - add both your GM synth (TSS-1) and the soundfont player (or other > soft synth) to Sonar's Synth Rack. When you add them, you will be given > the option to Create the First Synth Audio Output. That will create an > audio track in Sonar so you can control it's volume and other > properties. De-select the option to Create MIDI Track, since they > already exist in the project. > > - Make sure each MIDI track is dedicated to a single MIDI channel. > Drums are usually assigned to channel 10. > > - Then you just direct the output your MIDI tracks to whichever soft > synth you like - in your case, maybe, all MIDI tracks would go to the > TSS-1, except for the guitar track, which would be outputted to the > sound font player. > >> The thing about nudging the track to line things up sounds >> interesting. Are you talking about moving the midi info around? >> That shouldn't be the problem, because I can play the entire song >> through the Yamaha synth without any issues. I only have lag when >> I insert a DXI. Is there a way to alter latency of the inserted >> DXI, or maybe slowing down the Yamaha so the VSC can keep up? > > Yes, I'm talking about moving the MIDI track around. Not it shouldn't > be necessary, but it's a valid workaround. There's a control in Sonar 5 > to offset the MIDI time up and back, but I think I recall that that > control wasn't in the earliest versions of Sonar. Look in the help for > Track-Property-Time. |