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From: Neil Harrington on 7 Jul 2010 19:59 "John Navas" <spamfilter1(a)navasgroup.com> wrote in message news:hpn936hrdk8kmumsuhebv2e0sp3ecc9ann(a)4ax.com... > On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 16:03:56 -0400, in > <r-ydnZx0GIMuQKnRnZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d(a)giganews.com>, "Neil Harrington" > <nobody(a)homehere.net> wrote: > >>"John Navas" <spamfilter1(a)navasgroup.com> wrote in message >>news:s5e636te85o4kdf2pefhkchehbabe27eug(a)4ax.com... > >>> To you. Not to me, and to others like me who have learned how to use >>> the power zoom effectively and comfortably. For us, zooming isn't an >>> issue -- it's only an issue to those who haven't learned how to use it >>> effectively and comfortably. >> >>I suppose you could "learn how to use" pushbuttons to sign your name -- >>rather than just using a pen manually -- but I doubt anyone would be able >>to >>do that "effectively and comfortably" compared with doing it manually. > > Silly and meaningless analogy, as I'm sure you know (although I do use > pushbutton digital signature for electronic documents instead of jumping > through unnecessary hoops to sign them manually). Your "pushbutton digital signature" is not at all the same thing, is it? Try signing with some device that uses different pushbuttons to move the pen up, down or sideways. That would be analogous to pushbutton zooming. > >>For one thing, a manual zoom gives you an infinite range of focal lengths; >>you can quickly get *precisely* the framing you want -- whereas pushbutton >>motorized zooms go by steps, you have to be satisfied with "close enough," >>and not very quickly. > > As the citation I posted earlier shows, framing isn't an issue, and zoom > is quick enough for those of us that know how to use it effectively, as > I've said a number of time before. Yes, you have. Regardless of your "know[ing] how to use it effectively," it is still slower, less precise and more difficult than a manual zoom. > You're trying to project your own > limitations onto everyone else. > >>But apart from that, pushbuttons are just an awkward way of doing >>something >>that can be done much, much more efficiently with a simple manual control. > > It's a multi-speed rotary control, not push buttons -- > you must not have actual experience with it. ;) Then you're not talking about your FZ28, are you? If you're talking about a camera that has some sort of zoom control that imitates a manual zoom lens, then you're right, I have no experience with that. > >>It's somewhat like the difference between trying to regulate your speed on >>the highway with the + and - cruise control buttons instead of the far >>simpler accelerator pedal. > > Cruise control works fine for me, speeding up or slowing down. Really? When accelerating to pass another car, or slowing because the car in front of you has suddenly slowed, cruise control "works fine" for you? I think we must have quite different ideas about what "works fine" means. > Either yours isn't as good, or you must not know how to use it > effectively either. You seem to be talking about different cameras. If you're talking about your FZ28, of course my FZ35 is "as good" since it's essentially the same. > >>Motorized zooms are a necessary evil on compact cameras where there just >>isn't any room for a manual control and the associated parts. But that's >>what you have: a necessary evil, not a desired thing. Make all the excuses >>you like and it still doesn't change that. > > Motorized smart zooms are actually a benefit in that they free lens > design to use varifocal instead of more restrictive parfocal design, and Now there you have a point. In that respect yes, varifocal lenses have made small cameras possible. That has been true since long before digital cameras. > to make the lens smaller and lighter, and arguing against it is much > like arguing against autofocus. > >>> p.s. The FZ35 is not "almost identical" to the FZ28 -- it has >>> significant differences as well as significant similarities -- you >>> cannot make valid judgments of one from the other. >> >>Well, my FZ35 has some improvements over your FZ28 -- nothing that changes >>the basic shortcomings of that type of camera, though. > > Guess again. Show me where I'm wrong in saying so, then. I don't think you can show that.
From: Neil Harrington on 7 Jul 2010 20:04 "nospam" <nospam(a)nospam.invalid> wrote in message news:070720101330535476%nospam(a)nospam.invalid... > In article <hpn936hrdk8kmumsuhebv2e0sp3ecc9ann(a)4ax.com>, John Navas > <spamfilter1(a)navasgroup.com> wrote: > >> >I suppose you could "learn how to use" pushbuttons to sign your name -- >> >rather than just using a pen manually -- but I doubt anyone would be >> >able to >> >do that "effectively and comfortably" compared with doing it manually. >> >> Silly and meaningless analogy, as I'm sure you know (although I do use >> pushbutton digital signature for electronic documents instead of jumping >> through unnecessary hoops to sign them manually). > > you missed his point. > >> >For one thing, a manual zoom gives you an infinite range of focal >> >lengths; >> >you can quickly get *precisely* the framing you want -- whereas >> >pushbutton >> >motorized zooms go by steps, you have to be satisfied with "close >> >enough," >> >and not very quickly. >> >> As the citation I posted earlier shows, framing isn't an issue, and zoom >> is quick enough for those of us that know how to use it effectively, as >> I've said a number of time before. You're trying to project your own >> limitations onto everyone else. > > except for your friend who had problems with it. > >> >But apart from that, pushbuttons are just an awkward way of doing >> >something >> >that can be done much, much more efficiently with a simple manual >> >control. >> >> It's a multi-speed rotary control, not push buttons -- >> you must not have actual experience with it. ;) > > it's not directly coupled. > >> >It's somewhat like the difference between trying to regulate your speed >> >on >> >the highway with the + and - cruise control buttons instead of the far >> >simpler accelerator pedal. >> >> Cruise control works fine for me, speeding up or slowing down. >> Either yours isn't as good, or you must not know how to use it >> effectively either. > > you don't use cruise control in stop and go city traffic. why do you > insist on lying? > >> >Motorized zooms are a necessary evil on compact cameras where there just >> >isn't any room for a manual control and the associated parts. But that's >> >what you have: a necessary evil, not a desired thing. Make all the >> >excuses >> >you like and it still doesn't change that. >> >> Motorized smart zooms are actually a benefit in that they free lens >> design to use varifocal instead of more restrictive parfocal design, and >> to make the lens smaller and lighter, and arguing against it is much >> like arguing against autofocus. > > nonsense. the lens is smaller and lighter because the image circle is > smaller. there were slr zooms that were motorized and they were bigger, > slower and clunkier. the market rejected them (pentax and i think canon > had them). Minolta did also. They had no real benefit, were less easy to use, proved unreliable, often malfunctioned and were extremely unpopular. Minolta dropped them after about a year, as I recall. But he is correct in saying that varifocal lenses made smaller lenses possible on compact cameras than would have been the case if they were true zooms.
From: nospam on 7 Jul 2010 20:11 In article <JcWdnWlLXoB0iajRnZ2dnUVZ_hadnZ2d(a)giganews.com>, Neil Harrington <nobody(a)homehere.net> wrote: > >>For one thing, a manual zoom gives you an infinite range of focal lengths; > >>you can quickly get *precisely* the framing you want -- whereas pushbutton > >>motorized zooms go by steps, you have to be satisfied with "close enough," > >>and not very quickly. > > > > As the citation I posted earlier shows, framing isn't an issue, and zoom > > is quick enough for those of us that know how to use it effectively, as > > I've said a number of time before. > > Yes, you have. Regardless of your "know[ing] how to use it effectively," it > is still slower, less precise and more difficult than a manual zoom. he is making excuses for a workaround of a shortcoming. when others do the same, he criticizes them. > >>It's somewhat like the difference between trying to regulate your speed on > >>the highway with the + and - cruise control buttons instead of the far > >>simpler accelerator pedal. > > > > Cruise control works fine for me, speeding up or slowing down. > > Really? When accelerating to pass another car, or slowing because the car in > front of you has suddenly slowed, cruise control "works fine" for you? I > think we must have quite different ideas about what "works fine" means. that too. i was thinking of stop and go driving, especially in a car with manual transmission.
From: NameHere on 7 Jul 2010 20:26 On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 19:42:02 -0400, "Neil Harrington" <nobody(a)homehere.net> wrote: > >Maybe, but I have read users' complaints about it. It may be that they were >especially persnickety about the exact framing. What a funny comment. Coming from those with 95%-97% framing accuracy in their DSLRs even without a zoom lens. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: Russ D on 7 Jul 2010 20:31
On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 19:59:29 -0400, "Neil Harrington" <nobody(a)homehere.net> wrote: > >"John Navas" <spamfilter1(a)navasgroup.com> wrote in message >news:hpn936hrdk8kmumsuhebv2e0sp3ecc9ann(a)4ax.com... >> On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 16:03:56 -0400, in >> <r-ydnZx0GIMuQKnRnZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d(a)giganews.com>, "Neil Harrington" >> <nobody(a)homehere.net> wrote: >> >>>"John Navas" <spamfilter1(a)navasgroup.com> wrote in message >>>news:s5e636te85o4kdf2pefhkchehbabe27eug(a)4ax.com... >> >>>> To you. Not to me, and to others like me who have learned how to use >>>> the power zoom effectively and comfortably. For us, zooming isn't an >>>> issue -- it's only an issue to those who haven't learned how to use it >>>> effectively and comfortably. >>> >>>I suppose you could "learn how to use" pushbuttons to sign your name -- >>>rather than just using a pen manually -- but I doubt anyone would be able >>>to >>>do that "effectively and comfortably" compared with doing it manually. >> >> Silly and meaningless analogy, as I'm sure you know (although I do use >> pushbutton digital signature for electronic documents instead of jumping >> through unnecessary hoops to sign them manually). > >Your "pushbutton digital signature" is not at all the same thing, is it? Try >signing with some device that uses different pushbuttons to move the pen up, >down or sideways. That would be analogous to pushbutton zooming. > >> >>>For one thing, a manual zoom gives you an infinite range of focal lengths; >>>you can quickly get *precisely* the framing you want -- whereas pushbutton >>>motorized zooms go by steps, you have to be satisfied with "close enough," >>>and not very quickly. >> >> As the citation I posted earlier shows, framing isn't an issue, and zoom >> is quick enough for those of us that know how to use it effectively, as >> I've said a number of time before. > >Yes, you have. Regardless of your "know[ing] how to use it effectively," it >is still slower, less precise and more difficult than a manual zoom. > >> You're trying to project your own >> limitations onto everyone else. >> >>>But apart from that, pushbuttons are just an awkward way of doing >>>something >>>that can be done much, much more efficiently with a simple manual control. >> >> It's a multi-speed rotary control, not push buttons -- >> you must not have actual experience with it. ;) > >Then you're not talking about your FZ28, are you? If you're talking about a >camera that has some sort of zoom control that imitates a manual zoom lens, >then you're right, I have no experience with that. > >> >>>It's somewhat like the difference between trying to regulate your speed on >>>the highway with the + and - cruise control buttons instead of the far >>>simpler accelerator pedal. >> >> Cruise control works fine for me, speeding up or slowing down. > >Really? When accelerating to pass another car, or slowing because the car in >front of you has suddenly slowed, cruise control "works fine" for you? I >think we must have quite different ideas about what "works fine" means. > >> Either yours isn't as good, or you must not know how to use it >> effectively either. > >You seem to be talking about different cameras. If you're talking about your >FZ28, of course my FZ35 is "as good" since it's essentially the same. > >> >>>Motorized zooms are a necessary evil on compact cameras where there just >>>isn't any room for a manual control and the associated parts. But that's >>>what you have: a necessary evil, not a desired thing. Make all the excuses >>>you like and it still doesn't change that. >> >> Motorized smart zooms are actually a benefit in that they free lens >> design to use varifocal instead of more restrictive parfocal design, and > >Now there you have a point. In that respect yes, varifocal lenses have made >small cameras possible. That has been true since long before digital >cameras. > >> to make the lens smaller and lighter, and arguing against it is much >> like arguing against autofocus. >> >>>> p.s. The FZ35 is not "almost identical" to the FZ28 -- it has >>>> significant differences as well as significant similarities -- you >>>> cannot make valid judgments of one from the other. >>> >>>Well, my FZ35 has some improvements over your FZ28 -- nothing that changes >>>the basic shortcomings of that type of camera, though. >> >> Guess again. > >Show me where I'm wrong in saying so, then. I don't think you can show that. > Take for example a programmable zoom lens, as exist in all CHDK compatible cameras. Should you ever have the need to EXACTLY and PRECISELY duplicate both zoom and focus settings for extended timelapse projects, macro or otherwise, or stop-motion animation sequences, there's absolutely no way you can duplicate them with any manually focused and manually zoomed lens. Some people are not so constricted in their thinking and photographic creativity and require a programmable zoom lens. It also works just as well on all other less demanding projects too. |