Finally, Death of the 3.5 inch floppy disk
in [Computers]
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From: George Neuner on 29 Apr 2010 16:03 On 29 Apr 2010 10:40:08 GMT, Albert van der Horst <albert(a)spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote: >In article <7dtgt5d4gen2icp8qql138b9mmf6t81m0k(a)4ax.com>, >George Neuner <gneuner2(a)comcast.net> wrote: >>On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:55:51 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>wrote: >> >>>Stuart Longland wrote: >>>some of the [diskettes] I have at home are slowly decaying with age. >>> >>>Interesting. What's decaying about them? I've got Fuji MF2HD from the >>>90's and they still work fine. >> >>The media does not have high enough coercivity to retain magnetic >>alignment indefinitely - given enough time it loses orientation and >>your data simply fades away. >>And unlike hard disks, diskette R/W heads actually touch the recording >>surface and gradually wear away the media. > >This doesn't explain why virtually pristine disks (written only once >and a visibly impeccable surface) have difficulties reading and >are almost impossible to reformat. Problems with new disks are primarily head alignment issues with the drive. Computer manufacturers, after all, try to use the lowest cost components and there are now quite a few low(er) quality component vendors. Although all the drives might be technically within spec, differences in drift can make them incompatible. Many high quality preformatted diskettes are made with an embedded high(er) coercivity track lead (similar to hard drives). These diskettes *can't* be reformatted (your drive doesn't have enough power) but can only be erased ... and if head drift prevents your drives from accurately following the lead track then you have a problem. IME, since about 1995 it's become common to have machines which can't recognize factory formatted disks or to write with one machine and not be able to read it elsewhere. George
From: Rod Speed on 29 Apr 2010 19:33 George Neuner wrote: > On 29 Apr 2010 10:40:08 GMT, Albert van der Horst > <albert(a)spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote: > >> In article <7dtgt5d4gen2icp8qql138b9mmf6t81m0k(a)4ax.com>, >> George Neuner <gneuner2(a)comcast.net> wrote: >>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:55:51 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Stuart Longland wrote: >>>> some of the [diskettes] I have at home are slowly decaying with >>>> age. >>>> >>>> Interesting. What's decaying about them? I've got Fuji MF2HD from >>>> the 90's and they still work fine. >>> >>> The media does not have high enough coercivity to retain magnetic >>> alignment indefinitely - given enough time it loses orientation and >>> your data simply fades away. >>> And unlike hard disks, diskette R/W heads actually touch the >>> recording surface and gradually wear away the media. >> >> This doesn't explain why virtually pristine disks (written only once >> and a visibly impeccable surface) have difficulties reading and >> are almost impossible to reformat. > Problems with new disks are primarily head alignment issues with the drive. Nope, that is in fact a problem with old disks that may well have been written in a different drive. > Computer manufacturers, after all, try to use the lowest cost > components and there are now quite a few low(er) quality component > vendors. Although all the drives might be technically within spec, > differences in drift can make them incompatible. Yes, but that effect wont be seen with new disks, just with reading old ones. > Many high quality preformatted diskettes are made with an embedded > high(er) coercivity track lead (similar to hard drives). These > diskettes *can't* be reformatted (your drive doesn't have enough > power) but can only be erased ... and if head drift prevents your > drives from accurately following the lead track then you have a problem. > IME, since about 1995 it's become common to have machines which can't > recognize factory formatted disks or to write with one machine and not > be able to read it elsewhere.
From: Stuart Longland on 5 May 2010 18:23 On Apr 30, 2:07 am, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: > Paul Carpenter wrote: > > In article <83rugtFvq...(a)mid.individual.net>, inva...(a)invalid.invalid > > says... > >> Spehro Pefhany wrote: > >>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:15:21 -0700, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> > >>> wrote: > > >>>> Spehro Pefhany wrote: > >>>>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 11:49:10 -0700, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>> Yes, and that wear is clearly visible. However, the typical disk is used > >>>>>> as file storage and only once in a while read back, and then only small > >>>>>> parts of it. > >>>>> I have an old HP logic analyzer that boots off of a floppy. > > >>>> AFAIK there's also plenty of scopes from Tek and others where that's the > >>>> only way to get screen shots over to your PC. Unless you bought the now > >>>> pretty much unobtanium GPIB interface for beaucoup $$$. But mostly I see > >>>> that with production machines. One floppy slot and absolutely zilch in > >>>> terms of other interfaces. CNC gear become almost useless without being > >>>> able to feed data into it. > >>> Many, maybe most, of them have an old-fashioned serial interface too, > >>> for which people have cobbed together interfaces so that they can be > >>> controlled from a central point. There are half a dozen, from several > >>> different suppliers, in a college machine shop that I'm familiar with- > >>> used for teaching CNC machining. > > >> Occacionally I have been asked to take a look at a machine shop. Mainly > >> because it gets messy in there and they'd rather not carry disks around > >> and worst case get a splotch of gunk or metal chafings into a drive > >> (happened to me once). But usually there was only one or two of the > >> machines that had RS232, sometimes none. > > > Some machine shops have very old CNC equipment, last year I had an > > enquiry to find a spare PDP 11/73 card for one, that MIGHT have had > > a serial but I dread to think what format of media it might have had. > > I had to coach someone through repair and calibration of a circuit board > test bed from the 80's. All nicely DOS-based so it worked right off the > bat :-) The AUTOEXEC.BAT no less? :-)
From: Stuart Longland on 5 May 2010 18:28 On Apr 27, 9:07 pm, John Tserkezis <j...(a)techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote: > Stuart Longland wrote: > >> The only way to load device drivers (drive interfaces, SCSI drivers > >> etc) when installing windows is via the drive at A:. And that's your > >> only option. > >> Short of creating a magical alternate boot install CD/DVD for every new > >> model of box we get. Not looking forward to it. > > Actually, rumour has it, this is not the case in the two latest > > revisions of their OS. I say rumour as I have not ever tried > > installing one of these latest creations -- the one Windows Vista > > machine I used had it preloaded, and I've never touched Windows 7. > > No idea about Vista, but have installed Win7 several times so far, and > yes, your only option is F6 to look at drive A:. Good grief, and here I was thinking Microsoft _finally_ got around to fixing that. (I mean, cripes... at least look at a flaming CD fellas?!) I think USB could be difficult due to the fact that the initial loader (in the case of Windows XP and earlier) started in DOS, loaded the drivers into RAM then kickstarted the NT kernel from there, but one would have thought that on modern systems, the BIOS should still at least allow some access to USB drives. And clearly CD-ROMs are accessible as it loads the rest of the drivers that way. Never the less, this is just one of many countless examples where floppies are still needed. I guess the general public never have to face the dilemma of getting drivers into a new computer, and thus the floppy drive is seen as a needless relic of the past.
From: Joerg on 5 May 2010 21:15
Stuart Longland wrote: > On Apr 30, 2:07 am, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >> Paul Carpenter wrote: >>> In article <83rugtFvq...(a)mid.individual.net>, inva...(a)invalid.invalid >>> says... >>>> Spehro Pefhany wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:15:21 -0700, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Spehro Pefhany wrote: >>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 11:49:10 -0700, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Yes, and that wear is clearly visible. However, the typical disk is used >>>>>>>> as file storage and only once in a while read back, and then only small >>>>>>>> parts of it. >>>>>>> I have an old HP logic analyzer that boots off of a floppy. >>>>>> AFAIK there's also plenty of scopes from Tek and others where that's the >>>>>> only way to get screen shots over to your PC. Unless you bought the now >>>>>> pretty much unobtanium GPIB interface for beaucoup $$$. But mostly I see >>>>>> that with production machines. One floppy slot and absolutely zilch in >>>>>> terms of other interfaces. CNC gear become almost useless without being >>>>>> able to feed data into it. >>>>> Many, maybe most, of them have an old-fashioned serial interface too, >>>>> for which people have cobbed together interfaces so that they can be >>>>> controlled from a central point. There are half a dozen, from several >>>>> different suppliers, in a college machine shop that I'm familiar with- >>>>> used for teaching CNC machining. >>>> Occacionally I have been asked to take a look at a machine shop. Mainly >>>> because it gets messy in there and they'd rather not carry disks around >>>> and worst case get a splotch of gunk or metal chafings into a drive >>>> (happened to me once). But usually there was only one or two of the >>>> machines that had RS232, sometimes none. >>> Some machine shops have very old CNC equipment, last year I had an >>> enquiry to find a spare PDP 11/73 card for one, that MIGHT have had >>> a serial but I dread to think what format of media it might have had. >> I had to coach someone through repair and calibration of a circuit board >> test bed from the 80's. All nicely DOS-based so it worked right off the >> bat :-) > > The AUTOEXEC.BAT no less? :-) Yup, pretty much, a batch file :-) DOS is so remarkably fast. No grding on hard drives, no wait, it's instant. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. |