From: CJB on
As one of those with a large hobby site I just do not have the
inclination (or timne left in life) to rewrite it all. And there is no
easy conversion process and when I read the article I was horrified
that the conversion prcess was so complicated (with bugs all the way).
Seems to me Microsoft in its arrogance has completely ignored those
who only want to do web design and havn't the inclination to get
involved with deep coding. BIG backward step - for me too - I'm
afraid. CJB

Tom Willett wrote:
> If you want to rant, rant to Microsoft. This is a peer-to-peer newsgroup.
> You simply haven't figured out how to use software properly, so you blame MS
> for your own shortfalls.
>
> "SB" <s_byers666(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:4311b9eb-baf0-4f05-9670-86fcfc2f9401(a)e2g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> : Microsoft in its wisdom abandoned Frontpage in 2007 along with all of
> : its users. The replacement Expression (Web) is fraught with bugs, and
> : has yet to become stable. It has not yet been fully developed. It also
> : presents a STEEP learning curve (actually many) for those who want to
> : convert exisitng Frontpage webs to Expression. Many elect not to do
> : so.
> :
> : MS has shot itslef in the foot by abandoning three important groups of
> : users - who are all paying customers for the product.
> :
> : These are: 1/ small business owners who have easily built their own
> : web site in Frontpage, 2/ web designers for those small business
> : owners, and 3/ those who have created large hobby websites.
> :
> : For them to convert to Expression will not be easy - using FP
> : Extensions are out, as are many other FP features. Web designers in
> : Expression will need to learn a plethora of new technologies CCS,
> : HTML, XTML, etc., etc.
> :
> : Additionally all Expression pages will need to end in .html rather
> : than the FP standard of .htm This will mean that ALL linls to previous
> : FP pages will fail not only from other websites but also w.r.t.
> : indexing for searches by Google etc. Effectively current FP web sites
> : will disappear from view until re-indexed.
> :
> : All this as well as coping with the idiosyncracies of Expression
> : itself which is itself not a fully developed product.
> :
> :
> :
> : This web page explains more:
> :
> : http://www.prorganize.com/help/pages/frontpage-conversion-help.html
> :
> : Enjoy!!
From: Tina Clarke on
Most of your conversion advice is bad advice

For instance ew 2 is much better for transition for certain aspects.

There is absolutely no need to import anything though

I do agree to always backup your site yes in the program you started with
.....

its best to make three

one to keep
one to work with
one to experiment on

you just open the backed up one you are going to work with .. the working
web in expression web.. if you import you can lose things.

never use meta refresh .. the search engines dont like it .. use a 301
redirect which can be done in your host control panel if you don't know how
write the .htacces file

if you have managed 50 sites how come you don't know this basic web designer
fact?

I do agree having fp is better as it makes a lot less steps on removal of
some bots.

Just because it was 'easy' to use frontpage does mean its good for your
users or good for your business... the point of having a site is that its
found by targeted users, to that end you need to know a little bit of
everything taking the time to produce something that will do that and
learning whats needed for the process makes sense

- I've been through them all except fp97 ... I started with frontpage
express ... the worst to learn was fp98... in fact of them all frontpage
express was the easiest to learn .. because it didn't have much and if I
wanted something to happen I had to go find out how .. it forced me to learn
more .. unfortuntely i then was bought fp98 .. and fell into the bot trap
till early fp02 .. when I found out about includes.... after that I dropped
the bots one by one.. with the advent of fp03 ... there was no need to use
any of the bots ... dwt replaced themes (actually there was a addin for fp02
which did nearly the same thing) includes have always been there and work
with or without fpse (frontpage server extenstions) so once you know about
them there is no excuse to use shared borders and nav bots which are really
bad for the user of your site if you have one over ten pages.... the rest
all have really simple replacements... with ew 1....if you set it up
correctly it will TELL you when you have a error..... plus it has a much
better css editor which is easy to use (i use the css properties which tells
me the code).. and so on with ew 2 and 3 which have other enhancements ..
most of which I don't use apart from super preview.

I wish i was a newbie with expression web ... its ten times easier than fpe
or any of the versions ... though fp 03 almost gets there (i used to use
topstyle lite (got the pro version) for a better css editor though i learnt
in fp.. which took me three years to finally 'get' it ... with fp03 and
split view it speeded up the process because one can see both code and
design at the same time so you can't help learning the relationships between
the design and the coding.

This misconception about only being able to make .html pages.. really why
don't you ask for help?
All you have to do is change a setting and you can have .htm pages back
again.

This specfic page is what you need
http://any-expression.com/expression-web/tutorials/authoring-tab.htm

Read my free setting up ebook for whatever version you are using

Setting up Expression Web Ebook ( Fr*ee )
http://any-expression.com/expression-web/ebooks/setting-up-expression-web-ebook.htm

there is one for dwt as well

as for wanting to learn how to migrate .... this article might give you some
insights...

http://www.experts-exchange.com/articles/Web_Development/Software/Expression_Web/Migrating-from-FrontPage-to-Expression-Web.html
(note the formatting is not mine the ee editor made changes)

No one said you had to stop using fp ... find a host that will support them
(there are plenty about) and do what you want to do. .. Expression Web might
have problems but then so does any sw... to my mind its more about learning
about web design than learning a program....

I think Pat covered other points I don't have time for right now...

You don't really have to learn much to use ew..

Tina
-
http://www.expression-web.net - Expression Blog
http://any-expression.com/ - Expression Web Help
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/any-expression/ - Expression Web Ezine

: Microsoft in its wisdom abandoned Frontpage in 2007 along with all of
> : its users. The replacement Expression (Web) is fraught with bugs, and
> : has yet to become stable. It has not yet been fully developed. It also
> : presents a STEEP learning curve (actually many) for those who want to
> : convert exisitng Frontpage webs to Expression. Many elect not to do
> : so.
> :
> : MS has shot itslef in the foot by abandoning three important groups of
> : users - who are all paying customers for the product.
> :
> : These are: 1/ small business owners who have easily built their own
> : web site in Frontpage, 2/ web designers for those small business
> : owners, and 3/ those who have created large hobby websites.
> :
> : For them to convert to Expression will not be easy - using FP
> : Extensions are out, as are many other FP features. Web designers in
> : Expression will need to learn a plethora of new technologies CCS,
> : HTML, XTML, etc., etc.
> :
> : Additionally all Expression pages will need to end in .html rather
> : than the FP standard of .htm This will mean that ALL linls to previous
> : FP pages will fail not only from other websites but also w.r.t.
> : indexing for searches by Google etc. Effectively current FP web sites
> : will disappear from view until re-indexed.
> :
> : All this as well as coping with the idiosyncracies of Expression
> : itself which is itself not a fully developed product.
> :
> :
> :
> : This web page explains more:
> :
> : http://www.prorganize.com/help/pages/frontpage-conversion-help.html
> :
> : Enjoy!!
>
>


From: CJB on
On May 4, 9:20 pm, "Tina Clarke" <TinaCla...(a)any-expression.com>
wrote:
> Most of your conversion advice is bad advice
>
> For instance ew 2 is much better for transition for certain aspects.
>
> There is absolutely no need to import anything though
>
> I do agree to always backup your site yes in the program you started with
> ....
>
> its best to make three
>
> one to keep
> one to work with
> one to experiment on
>
> you just open the backed up one you are going to work with .. the working
> web in expression web.. if you import you can lose things.
>
> never use meta refresh .. the search engines dont like it .. use a 301
> redirect which can be done in your host control panel if you don't know how
> write the .htacces file
>
> if you have managed 50 sites how come you don't know this basic web designer
> fact?
>
> I do agree having fp is better as it makes a lot less steps on removal of
> some bots.
>
> Just because it was 'easy' to use frontpage does mean its good for your
> users or good for your business... the point of having a site is that its
> found by targeted users, to that end you need to know a little bit of
> everything  taking the time to produce something that will do that and
> learning whats needed for the process makes sense
>
> - I've been through them all except fp97 ... I started with frontpage
> express ... the worst to learn was fp98... in fact of them all frontpage
> express was the easiest to learn .. because it didn't have much and if I
> wanted something to happen I had to go find out how .. it forced me to learn
> more .. unfortuntely i then was bought fp98 .. and fell into the bot trap
> till early fp02 .. when I found out about includes.... after that I dropped
> the bots one by one.. with the advent of fp03 ... there was no need to use
> any of the bots ... dwt replaced themes (actually there was a addin for fp02
> which did nearly the same thing) includes have always been there and work
> with or without fpse (frontpage server extenstions) so once you know about
> them there is no excuse to use shared borders and nav bots which are really
> bad for the user of your site if you have one over ten pages.... the rest
> all have really simple replacements... with ew 1....if you set it up
> correctly it will TELL you when you have a error..... plus it has a much
> better css editor which is easy to use (i use the css properties which tells
> me the code).. and so on with ew 2 and 3 which have other enhancements ..
> most of which I don't use apart from super preview.
>
> I wish i was a newbie with expression web ... its ten times easier than fpe
> or any of the versions ... though fp 03 almost gets there (i used to use
> topstyle lite (got the pro version) for a better css editor though i learnt
> in fp.. which took me three years to finally 'get' it ... with fp03 and
> split view it speeded up the process because one can see both code and
> design at the same time so you can't help learning the relationships between
> the design and the coding.
>
> This misconception about only being able to make .html pages.. really why
> don't you ask for help?
> All you have to do is change a setting and you can have .htm pages back
> again.
>
> This specfic page is what you needhttp://any-expression.com/expression-web/tutorials/authoring-tab.htm
>
> Read my free setting up ebook for whatever version you are using
>
> Setting up Expression Web Ebook ( Fr*ee )http://any-expression.com/expression-web/ebooks/setting-up-expression...
>
> there is one for dwt as well
>
> as for wanting to learn how to migrate .... this article might give you some
> insights...
>
> http://www.experts-exchange.com/articles/Web_Development/Software/Exp...
> (note the formatting is not mine the ee editor made changes)
>
> No one said you had to stop using fp ... find a host that will support them
> (there are plenty about) and do what you want to do. .. Expression Web might
> have problems but then so does any sw... to my mind its more about learning
> about web design than learning a program....
>
> I think Pat covered other points I don't have time for right now...
>
> You don't really have to learn much to use ew..
>
> Tina
> -http://www.expression-web.net- Expression Bloghttp://any-expression.com/- Expression Web Helphttp://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/any-expression/- Expression Web Ezine
>
> : Microsoft in its wisdom abandoned Frontpage in 2007 along with all of
>
>
>
> > : its users. The replacement Expression (Web) is fraught with bugs, and
> > : has yet to become stable. It has not yet been fully developed. It also
> > : presents a STEEP learning curve (actually many) for those who want to
> > : convert exisitng Frontpage webs to Expression. Many elect not to do
> > : so.
> > :
> > : MS has shot itslef in the foot by abandoning three important groups of
> > : users - who are all paying customers for the product.
> > :
> > : These are: 1/ small business owners who have easily built their own
> > : web site in Frontpage, 2/ web designers for those small business
> > : owners, and 3/ those who have created large hobby websites.
> > :
> > : For them to convert to Expression will not be easy - using FP
> > : Extensions are out, as are many other FP features. Web designers in
> > : Expression will need to learn a plethora of new technologies CCS,
> > : HTML, XTML, etc., etc.
> > :
> > : Additionally all Expression pages will need to end in .html rather
> > : than the FP standard of .htm This will mean that ALL linls to previous
> > : FP pages will fail not only from other websites but also w.r.t.
> > : indexing for searches by Google etc. Effectively current FP web sites
> > : will disappear from view until re-indexed.
> > :
> > : All this as well as coping with the idiosyncracies of Expression
> > : itself which is itself not a fully developed product.
> > :
> > :
> > :
> > : This web page explains more:
> > :
> > :http://www.prorganize.com/help/pages/frontpage-conversion-help.html
> > :
> > : Enjoy!!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sharepoint Designer 2007 might well be free - but it is a massive
download of 290Mb+ - and comes with SPs and other addons. However it
seems to be a stop gap before EW came along. 2007 is already 'old.' So
why are MS giving it away. And where is the support for it?

And now many are faced with converting FP sites to SD sites to EW
sites? Or is it possible to go straight from FP to EW?

But with these alternative editors (and including Dreamweaver) I fail
to see how even the simplest functionalities such as keeping track of
links works. With FP you could change the name or folder of a file and
the changes would ripple through the whole site. I do not see that
functionality with these other apps. It appears that the automoation
that made FP easy to use has been replaced by hand editing and
rebuilding on a massive scale.

CJB
From: Rob Giordano [MS MVP] on
Nothing is keeping you from continuing to use FP



--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression Web






"CJB" <chrisjbrady(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:39cab1bf-0e75-4d69-bbb7-345c16f9a527(a)j33g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> As one of those with a large hobby site I just do not have the
> inclination (or timne left in life) to rewrite it all. And there is no
> easy conversion process and when I read the article I was horrified
> that the conversion prcess was so complicated (with bugs all the way).
> Seems to me Microsoft in its arrogance has completely ignored those
> who only want to do web design and havn't the inclination to get
> involved with deep coding. BIG backward step - for me too - I'm
> afraid. CJB
>
> Tom Willett wrote:
>> If you want to rant, rant to Microsoft. This is a peer-to-peer newsgroup.
>> You simply haven't figured out how to use software properly, so you blame
>> MS
>> for your own shortfalls.
>>
>> "SB" <s_byers666(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:4311b9eb-baf0-4f05-9670-86fcfc2f9401(a)e2g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>> : Microsoft in its wisdom abandoned Frontpage in 2007 along with all of
>> : its users. The replacement Expression (Web) is fraught with bugs, and
>> : has yet to become stable. It has not yet been fully developed. It also
>> : presents a STEEP learning curve (actually many) for those who want to
>> : convert exisitng Frontpage webs to Expression. Many elect not to do
>> : so.
>> :
>> : MS has shot itslef in the foot by abandoning three important groups of
>> : users - who are all paying customers for the product.
>> :
>> : These are: 1/ small business owners who have easily built their own
>> : web site in Frontpage, 2/ web designers for those small business
>> : owners, and 3/ those who have created large hobby websites.
>> :
>> : For them to convert to Expression will not be easy - using FP
>> : Extensions are out, as are many other FP features. Web designers in
>> : Expression will need to learn a plethora of new technologies CCS,
>> : HTML, XTML, etc., etc.
>> :
>> : Additionally all Expression pages will need to end in .html rather
>> : than the FP standard of .htm This will mean that ALL linls to previous
>> : FP pages will fail not only from other websites but also w.r.t.
>> : indexing for searches by Google etc. Effectively current FP web sites
>> : will disappear from view until re-indexed.
>> :
>> : All this as well as coping with the idiosyncracies of Expression
>> : itself which is itself not a fully developed product.
>> :
>> :
>> :
>> : This web page explains more:
>> :
>> : http://www.prorganize.com/help/pages/frontpage-conversion-help.html
>> :
>> : Enjoy!!


From: Rob Giordano [MS MVP] on
they both track link changes

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression Web






"CJB" <chrisjbrady(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6f37b9d7-2bd3-422d-9aaa-f79b06739da5(a)37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> On May 4, 9:20 pm, "Tina Clarke" <TinaCla...(a)any-expression.com>
> wrote:
>> Most of your conversion advice is bad advice
>>
>> For instance ew 2 is much better for transition for certain aspects.
>>
>> There is absolutely no need to import anything though
>>
>> I do agree to always backup your site yes in the program you started with
>> ....
>>
>> its best to make three
>>
>> one to keep
>> one to work with
>> one to experiment on
>>
>> you just open the backed up one you are going to work with .. the working
>> web in expression web.. if you import you can lose things.
>>
>> never use meta refresh .. the search engines dont like it .. use a 301
>> redirect which can be done in your host control panel if you don't know
>> how
>> write the .htacces file
>>
>> if you have managed 50 sites how come you don't know this basic web
>> designer
>> fact?
>>
>> I do agree having fp is better as it makes a lot less steps on removal of
>> some bots.
>>
>> Just because it was 'easy' to use frontpage does mean its good for your
>> users or good for your business... the point of having a site is that its
>> found by targeted users, to that end you need to know a little bit of
>> everything taking the time to produce something that will do that and
>> learning whats needed for the process makes sense
>>
>> - I've been through them all except fp97 ... I started with frontpage
>> express ... the worst to learn was fp98... in fact of them all frontpage
>> express was the easiest to learn .. because it didn't have much and if I
>> wanted something to happen I had to go find out how .. it forced me to
>> learn
>> more .. unfortuntely i then was bought fp98 .. and fell into the bot trap
>> till early fp02 .. when I found out about includes.... after that I
>> dropped
>> the bots one by one.. with the advent of fp03 ... there was no need to
>> use
>> any of the bots ... dwt replaced themes (actually there was a addin for
>> fp02
>> which did nearly the same thing) includes have always been there and work
>> with or without fpse (frontpage server extenstions) so once you know
>> about
>> them there is no excuse to use shared borders and nav bots which are
>> really
>> bad for the user of your site if you have one over ten pages.... the rest
>> all have really simple replacements... with ew 1....if you set it up
>> correctly it will TELL you when you have a error..... plus it has a much
>> better css editor which is easy to use (i use the css properties which
>> tells
>> me the code).. and so on with ew 2 and 3 which have other enhancements ..
>> most of which I don't use apart from super preview.
>>
>> I wish i was a newbie with expression web ... its ten times easier than
>> fpe
>> or any of the versions ... though fp 03 almost gets there (i used to use
>> topstyle lite (got the pro version) for a better css editor though i
>> learnt
>> in fp.. which took me three years to finally 'get' it ... with fp03 and
>> split view it speeded up the process because one can see both code and
>> design at the same time so you can't help learning the relationships
>> between
>> the design and the coding.
>>
>> This misconception about only being able to make .html pages.. really why
>> don't you ask for help?
>> All you have to do is change a setting and you can have .htm pages back
>> again.
>>
>> This specfic page is what you
>> needhttp://any-expression.com/expression-web/tutorials/authoring-tab.htm
>>
>> Read my free setting up ebook for whatever version you are using
>>
>> Setting up Expression Web Ebook (
>> Fr*ee )http://any-expression.com/expression-web/ebooks/setting-up-expression...
>>
>> there is one for dwt as well
>>
>> as for wanting to learn how to migrate .... this article might give you
>> some
>> insights...
>>
>> http://www.experts-exchange.com/articles/Web_Development/Software/Exp...
>> (note the formatting is not mine the ee editor made changes)
>>
>> No one said you had to stop using fp ... find a host that will support
>> them
>> (there are plenty about) and do what you want to do. .. Expression Web
>> might
>> have problems but then so does any sw... to my mind its more about
>> learning
>> about web design than learning a program....
>>
>> I think Pat covered other points I don't have time for right now...
>>
>> You don't really have to learn much to use ew..
>>
>> Tina
>> -http://www.expression-web.net- Expression
>> Bloghttp://any-expression.com/- Expression Web
>> Helphttp://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/any-expression/- Expression Web
>> Ezine
>>
>> : Microsoft in its wisdom abandoned Frontpage in 2007 along with all of
>>
>>
>>
>> > : its users. The replacement Expression (Web) is fraught with bugs, and
>> > : has yet to become stable. It has not yet been fully developed. It
>> > also
>> > : presents a STEEP learning curve (actually many) for those who want to
>> > : convert exisitng Frontpage webs to Expression. Many elect not to do
>> > : so.
>> > :
>> > : MS has shot itslef in the foot by abandoning three important groups
>> > of
>> > : users - who are all paying customers for the product.
>> > :
>> > : These are: 1/ small business owners who have easily built their own
>> > : web site in Frontpage, 2/ web designers for those small business
>> > : owners, and 3/ those who have created large hobby websites.
>> > :
>> > : For them to convert to Expression will not be easy - using FP
>> > : Extensions are out, as are many other FP features. Web designers in
>> > : Expression will need to learn a plethora of new technologies CCS,
>> > : HTML, XTML, etc., etc.
>> > :
>> > : Additionally all Expression pages will need to end in .html rather
>> > : than the FP standard of .htm This will mean that ALL linls to
>> > previous
>> > : FP pages will fail not only from other websites but also w.r.t.
>> > : indexing for searches by Google etc. Effectively current FP web sites
>> > : will disappear from view until re-indexed.
>> > :
>> > : All this as well as coping with the idiosyncracies of Expression
>> > : itself which is itself not a fully developed product.
>> > :
>> > :
>> > :
>> > : This web page explains more:
>> > :
>> > :http://www.prorganize.com/help/pages/frontpage-conversion-help.html
>> > :
>> > : Enjoy!!- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Sharepoint Designer 2007 might well be free - but it is a massive
> download of 290Mb+ - and comes with SPs and other addons. However it
> seems to be a stop gap before EW came along. 2007 is already 'old.' So
> why are MS giving it away. And where is the support for it?
>
> And now many are faced with converting FP sites to SD sites to EW
> sites? Or is it possible to go straight from FP to EW?
>
> But with these alternative editors (and including Dreamweaver) I fail
> to see how even the simplest functionalities such as keeping track of
> links works. With FP you could change the name or folder of a file and
> the changes would ripple through the whole site. I do not see that
> functionality with these other apps. It appears that the automoation
> that made FP easy to use has been replaced by hand editing and
> rebuilding on a massive scale.
>
> CJB