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From: Ofnuts on 7 Apr 2010 11:31 On 07/04/2010 15:02, James Nagler wrote: > This too could be the very reason for the Spanish > Inquisition. The French inquisition was about as bad (ask the Cathars)(read "Montaillou: the Promised Land of Error" (or "Montaillou, village occitan") for some historical perpective). -- Bertrand
From: tony cooper on 7 Apr 2010 11:51 On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:59:19 GMT, Winniethepooh(a)100acrewoods.org (GMAN) wrote: >In article <4b5nr51hjh0ib8a3u26rpj3oqpohb5h3vs(a)4ax.com>, tony cooper <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote: >>On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 19:30:46 GMT, Winniethepooh(a)100acrewoods.org >>(GMAN) wrote: >> >>>>Hello, in my country Easter is almost a national holiday, because >>>>Catholicism is part of the culture of my country. When I can, I try to take >>>>photos in old temple in the historic center of Lima, but now I had thought >>>>of moving to another matter. >>>> >>> >>>Its a part of the culture of your country due to the fact that centuries ago, >>>your beloved catholic church threatened and did burn or kill thousands upon >>>thousands of people who refused to be forced to convert. >> >>Much like, say, the Roundheads? The Crusaders? The Nazis? The >>followers of Cotton Mather? >> >>What is your culture, and is it free of historical actions of a >>similar nature? >> >My culture doesnt claim to speak for god. You ducked the question. Whatever your culture is, go back in time and you will find that that culture committed similar actions. You have to back further in some cultures, but it's going to be there. You don't seem to have an understanding of what a culture is. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
From: Savageduck on 7 Apr 2010 12:17 On 2010-04-07 08:31:38 -0700, Ofnuts <o.f.n.u.t.s(a)la.poste.net> said: > On 07/04/2010 15:02, James Nagler wrote: >> This too could be the very reason for the Spanish >> Inquisition. > > The French inquisition was about as bad (ask the Cathars)(read > "Montaillou: the Promised Land of Error" (or "Montaillou, village > occitan") for some historical perpective). You will notice, when I first brought up the Inquisition, I didn't refer to the "Spanish Inquisition" but the "Inquisition." That refers to the different Inquisitional bodies including Roman, Spanish, Portuguese & Medieval Inquisitions. Though Torquemada is such an appropriate name for a Grand Inquisitor, and his is the face most people put on the Inquisition. Thereby leading many to think all of the Inquisitions were Spanish. There wasn't a "French Inquisition" per se, but was part of the "Medieval and Papal" Inquisitions. -- Regards, Savageduck
From: Chris H on 7 Apr 2010 13:50 In message <fodpr55fbd76cisisqsj8sch1cuoqho185(a)4ax.com>, tony cooper <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> writes >It's almost impossible, though, to accurately estimate the number of >people involved in abuse. In the parish we* have belonged to for >almost 30 years, there has been one known case of a priest involved in >pedophilia. He was transferred in from another parish, and >transferred back out in less than a year. That is ONE to many.. Notice that he was " He was transferred in from another parish, and transferred back out in less than a year." Notice he was NOT Defrocked and handed over to the authorities. The Catholic Church protecting Pedophiles again. Tony did you assist the Police in bringing a prosecution or help the Pedophile go somewhere else to abuse other children? As you say:- >In my book, if you have knowledge - or even well-founded suspicion - >of illicit acts and don't take action, you are just as involved as the >person who commits the acts. I agree. This is where the 25% comes from. The actual number of abusers (prior to the revelations of the last two years) was around 10% or three times the general population. >*I was a lapsed Catholic when we moved to Florida, but my wife isn't >lapsed. If it was my choice, we wouldn't have joined any parish. So why did you join? Faith is individual You and your wife do not have ot be the same religion. Most of the Catholics I know are lapsed or semi lapsed or sort of practising... It seems a religion of hypocrites. -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
From: Vance on 7 Apr 2010 14:23
On Apr 6, 9:08 pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote: > On 2010-04-06 20:08:15 -0700, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.use...(a)cox.net> said: > > > > > > > On 4/6/2010 4:16 PM, tony cooper wrote: > >> On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 19:30:46 GMT, Winniethep...(a)100acrewoods.org > >> (GMAN) wrote: > > >>>> Hello, in my country Easter is almost a national holiday, because > >>>> Catholicism is part of the culture of my country. When I can, I try to take > >>>> photos in old temple in the historic center of Lima, but now I had thought > >>>> of moving to another matter. > > >>> Its a part of the culture of your country due to the fact that centuries ago, > >>> your beloved catholic church threatened and did burn or kill thousands upon > >>> thousands of people who refused to be forced to convert. > > >> Much like, say, the Roundheads? The Crusaders? The Nazis? The > >> followers of Cotton Mather? > > >> What is your culture, and is it free of historical actions of a > >> similar nature? > > > I want to know who these "thousands upon thousands of people who > > refused to be forced to convert". > > Time for a little history. > > I would start with the Eighty Years War with the Dutch vs. The Spanish > & The Habsburgs.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighty_Years%27_War > > Moving on to the European Wars of Religion.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion > > Then try the Huguenots and their little dispute with the Catholic French.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguenot > > ...and what was that other thing? Oh yes! The Inquisition.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition > > -- > Regards, > > Savageduck- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Actually, there seems to be a referential slip here. The conversion under consideration originally is from something other than Christian to Christian. What you cited is intra Christian conversion and had as much to do with the politics of the rising nation state concept as religion. For examples of forced conversion you can go back further to at least 9th Century and the beginning of the Crusades in Christian history. However, much of that conversion focus was due to a millenial perspective of the lay people making up the first Crusade. This was a different perspective than the Churche's non-official, but more to the point view that it was a chance to heal the Great Scnism between the Orthodox Church of the Bysantine Empire and the Catholic Church that held the Western region of the Roman Empire. Military aid had been requested by the Bysantine Emporor to help against the Turkomans with the very clear implication that this would ease a repair of the Schism. However, it was literally sold to the populace as a Holy Mission to reclaim Jeruselam. Through the period of the various Crusades, you can strip away much of the trappings and look to the economics of Empire and personal power for the dynamics. For a purer example of forced conversion, maybe even a pure example, you can look to the expulsion of the Jews in 1492 by Ferdinand and Isabella and the following expulsion of the Muslims in 1498. In the New World, after the devestation of the native population by disease, estimated to be as high as 90%, there was a focused effort at conversion of the indidenous people by the Spanish because of Ferdinand's undoubted relisiousity, but the main and driving focus of subjugating the population was to provide a work force. Forced conversion under pain of death wasn't policy per se because: 1. The economics of replacing the workforce with imported slaves mitigated against killing as a policy - you don't kill who you need. 2. The existing religion didn't present any threat to Christianity per se and, as pagans never previously exposed to the 'truth' of the Christian message they were to be converted because they were not at fault and had not rejected the Church's message. This was the role of the Jesuits. Like a lot of history, the wrappings, whether it is a flag, a religion or something else, isn't really the package it contains. As far as the Inquisition goes, it was never their job to force conversion. Their role was to root out 'heresy', which is why professed Jews and Muslims never came under their jurisdiction. Heresy can only be a crime within the context of and by a member of a church. Jews and Muslims couldn't commit heresy. Where they did come into play re conversions was, in the case of the Spanish Inquisition, was with the Conversos, which were the Jews (and similarly, though not nearly with the same zeal, the Muslim converts). Having converted to Christianity rather than be killed or leave the country, they were now subject to the Inquisition, There were also two Inquisitions, the Spanish Inquisition which was truly an arm of King Ferdinand's policies and who specifically request from Rome the permission to create it and which was not even close to Papal control and the separate Papal Inquisition. Neither nice organizations, but under the rubric 'the Inquisition' the most common association is with the practices of the Spanish Inquisition. The story is more complex than a Wikipedia cite. Vance |