Microsoft Responds to the Evolution of Online Communities
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From: Jim Thomlinson on 5 May 2010 10:15 I think I will try the new forum before I express an opinion on whether it is better or worse. Just my 2 cents. -- HTH... Jim Thomlinson "Joe User" wrote: > <nntp(a)microsoft.com> wrote: > > Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin > > progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups > > to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum > > platform. > > Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that they > have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable and least > feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of. > > Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup > website http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx. In > the Q&A there: > > "Q: Where can I access these forums from? > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx" > > The only potentially good thing to come out of this.... > > "Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different? > [....] > Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums will > be." > > But the operative word is "potentially". > > First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing "forums". > Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem reports. In fact, > they do not even provide an effective way to report problems with "forums". > > Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless (just > a pass-thru). > > But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that postings > will incur delays. > > Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large. > Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps > Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators. > > Oh well.... > > > ----- original message ----- > > <nntp(a)microsoft.com> wrote in message > news:O31y6i$6KHA.2160(a)TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > > Date 5/4/2010 > > Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively closing > > down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the > > rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to worldwide > > market trends and evolving customer needs. > > > > Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort, > > consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors to > > retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment > > with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search > > engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic > > management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by > > facilitating discussions in a clean space. > > > > We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to the > > community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools and > > resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions. > > > > We are working diligently on providing additional resources and > > information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please > > refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website > > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx concerning > > this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in > > additional languages in the next few days. > > > > . >
From: Jim Thomlinson on 5 May 2010 12:08 To expand on what I said... I like the way the news group works. It is simple and intuitive. The only issues I have so far is that I don't want to lose the body of work that exists in these forums. I often find myself searching for posts that I read long ago. Secondly I am not sure that I like the new categories for XL. Noteably the programming forum is gone. That being said the current categories are not perfect either. -- HTH... Jim Thomlinson "Jim Thomlinson" wrote: > I think I will try the new forum before I express an opinion on whether it is > better or worse. Just my 2 cents. > -- > HTH... > > Jim Thomlinson > > > "Joe User" wrote: > > > <nntp(a)microsoft.com> wrote: > > > Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin > > > progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups > > > to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum > > > platform. > > > > Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that they > > have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable and least > > feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of. > > > > Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup > > website http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx. In > > the Q&A there: > > > > "Q: Where can I access these forums from? > > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx" > > > > The only potentially good thing to come out of this.... > > > > "Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different? > > [....] > > Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums will > > be." > > > > But the operative word is "potentially". > > > > First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing "forums". > > Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem reports. In fact, > > they do not even provide an effective way to report problems with "forums". > > > > Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless (just > > a pass-thru). > > > > But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that postings > > will incur delays. > > > > Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large. > > Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps > > Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators. > > > > Oh well.... > > > > > > ----- original message ----- > > > > <nntp(a)microsoft.com> wrote in message > > news:O31y6i$6KHA.2160(a)TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > > > Date 5/4/2010 > > > Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively closing > > > down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the > > > rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to worldwide > > > market trends and evolving customer needs. > > > > > > Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort, > > > consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors to > > > retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment > > > with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search > > > engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic > > > management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by > > > facilitating discussions in a clean space. > > > > > > We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to the > > > community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools and > > > resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions. > > > > > > We are working diligently on providing additional resources and > > > information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please > > > refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website > > > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx concerning > > > this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in > > > additional languages in the next few days. > > > > > > > . > >
From: Joe User on 5 May 2010 14:28 "T. Valko" <biffinpitt(a)comcast.net> wrote: > I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum: > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else. > So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums. Not sure if you are calling me a liar, or you think I am incapable of copy-and-pasting, or you simply cannot read. I quoted what that link mentions. I wrote: In the Q&A there: "Q: Where can I access these forums from? http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx" > The new Excel forums are located at: > http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx Yes, that is another way to get the same new Excel forums, apparently. But the two top-level web sites are very different, at least in appearance. I cannot explain to you why Microsoft has two different ways to go to the same place. But that does not make you right and me wrong. It is not the first time that Microsoft has maintained two different ways to access the same forums. Jerry Lewis made me aware of two ways to access (some of) the "Discussion Groups": www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us, which I have always used, and www.microsoft.com/office/community/en-us/default.mspx, which Jerry was using recently. But in fact, the web site I used has a more complete list of Excel "Discussion Groups" than the web site that Jerry used. Caveat emptor. > The UI is completely different but it's still > a web based forum! There is nothing inherently wrong with a web interface. Google Groups is a web interface, and I find it reasonably adequate. I was commenting on Microsoft's historical failure to maintain a reliable interface, web or otherwise. (Not to say that GG is perfect.) Also, Microsoft's historical poor support of the interfaces that they provide. Even with the new Excel forums, I do not see any way to report problems to Microsoft. (But that might be my oversight. I just looked for the obvious "contact us" link on one web page.) I also raised concerns (along with compliments) about how that moderator process might work. This is based on two decades of experience with moderated NGs. Perhaps MVP Ron Coderre can offer some insight. Apparently he is the moderator (or one of them) of some of the new Excel forums. Lastly, my chief concern is that there will no longer be an alternative if/when posting problems arise with the new Excel forum. And I will no longer be able to troubleshoot and explain those problems, like deleted postings. You have personally benefitted from that just recently. Oh well, it's a done deal. I am not trying to complain. I am merely trying to set expectations. ----- original message ----- "T. Valko" <biffinpitt(a)comcast.net> wrote in message news:%23WL3lhA7KHA.3184(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum: > > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx > > So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums. > > The new Excel forums are located at: > > http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx > > I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still > a web based forum! > > -- > Biff > Microsoft Excel MVP > > > "Joe User" <joeu2004> wrote in message > news:eNCga%23$6KHA.5808(a)TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... >> <nntp(a)microsoft.com> wrote: >>> Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin >>> progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups >>> to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum >>> platform. >> >> Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that >> they have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable >> and least feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of. >> >> Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup >> website http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx. In >> the Q&A there: >> >> "Q: Where can I access these forums from? >> http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx" >> >> The only potentially good thing to come out of this.... >> >> "Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different? >> [....] >> Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums >> will be." >> >> But the operative word is "potentially". >> >> First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing >> "forums". Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem >> reports. In fact, they do not even provide an effective way to report >> problems with "forums". >> >> Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless >> (just a pass-thru). >> >> But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that >> postings will incur delays. >> >> Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large. >> Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps >> Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators. >> >> Oh well.... >> >> >> ----- original message ----- >> >> <nntp(a)microsoft.com> wrote in message >> news:O31y6i$6KHA.2160(a)TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >>> Date 5/4/2010 >>> Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively >>> closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in >>> the rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to >>> worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs. >>> >>> Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort, >>> consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors >>> to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community >>> environment with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers >>> and search engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and >>> off-topic management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by >>> facilitating discussions in a clean space. >>> >>> We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to >>> the community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out >>> tools and resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions. >>> >>> We are working diligently on providing additional resources and >>> information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please >>> refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website >>> http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx concerning >>> this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in >>> additional languages in the next few days. >>> >> > >
From: Jef Gorbach on 5 May 2010 14:36 So will google groups still access this forum once it relocates??
From: Joe User on 5 May 2010 14:52
"Jim Thomlinson" <James_Thomlinson(a)owfg-Re-Move-This-.com> wrote: > I think I will try the new forum before I express an opinion on whether it > is > better or worse. You are right: I had not looked. Not that I have, I can offer the opinion that I think the interface is even worse that the "Discussion Groups" interface, if you can imagine that. (But of course, that is only one opinion. To each his own.) But I hasten to note that my previous comments were not intended to be about the interface per se. I was not expressing any opinion then about whether it is better or worse. Frankly, I don't care one way or the other. I was expressing concern that Microsoft was limiting "forum" access to Microsoft's method. My concern is based on Microsoft's historical failure to maintain a reliable interface (web or otherwise, makes no difference to me), and its historical failure to provide reason support of their interface, e.g. a rudimentary "contact us" link to report problems. (No matter: Microsoft does not address reported problems anyway. ;->) I also expressed concern (along with compliments) about the moderator process. That is based on two decades of experience with the NG moderator process. The good: hopefully less spam, if not none at all. The bad: potential delays, and possible censorship. MVP Ron Coderre can offer his insight. Apparently he is (one of) the moderator for (some of) the new Excel forums. (Note to Ron: I hope you have alternate moderators. That is essential to process.) Lastly, I was expressing concern about having only one method for posting inquiries/responses -- a single point of failure. We have benefitted from having multiple methods; when your favorite method encountered problems, there was another method to post a "what's happening?" question, at the very least. Moreover, the openness of the NG server and the alternative archive sites permitted me to troubleshoot and explain some posting problems. I have dispelled some misunderstandings; and I have exposed some bad practices on the MSnews server in particular. The opaqueness and uniqueness of the new forum interface makes all that impossible. So we are entirely dependent on Microsoft for support; and that comes full circle to my primary concern that Microsoft has proven unable or incapable of supporting such forums. Oh well, such as life.... ----- original message ----- "Jim Thomlinson" <James_Thomlinson(a)owfg-Re-Move-This-.com> wrote in message news:15FA3080-CBEE-45CF-B2E1-5E67E74EB6C9(a)microsoft.com... >I think I will try the new forum before I express an opinion on whether it >is > better or worse. Just my 2 cents. > -- > HTH... > > Jim Thomlinson > > > "Joe User" wrote: > >> <nntp(a)microsoft.com> wrote: >> > Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin >> > progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups >> > to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum >> > platform. >> >> Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that >> they >> have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable and >> least >> feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of. >> >> Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup >> website http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx. In >> the Q&A there: >> >> "Q: Where can I access these forums from? >> http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx" >> >> The only potentially good thing to come out of this.... >> >> "Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different? >> [....] >> Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums >> will >> be." >> >> But the operative word is "potentially". >> >> First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing >> "forums". >> Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem reports. In >> fact, >> they do not even provide an effective way to report problems with >> "forums". >> >> Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless >> (just >> a pass-thru). >> >> But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that >> postings >> will incur delays. >> >> Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large. >> Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps >> Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators. >> >> Oh well.... >> >> >> ----- original message ----- >> >> <nntp(a)microsoft.com> wrote in message >> news:O31y6i$6KHA.2160(a)TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >> > Date 5/4/2010 >> > Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively >> > closing >> > down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the >> > rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to >> > worldwide >> > market trends and evolving customer needs. >> > >> > Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort, >> > consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors >> > to >> > retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment >> > with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search >> > engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic >> > management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by >> > facilitating discussions in a clean space. >> > >> > We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to >> > the >> > community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools >> > and >> > resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions. >> > >> > We are working diligently on providing additional resources and >> > information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, >> > please >> > refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website >> > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx concerning >> > this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in >> > additional languages in the next few days. >> > >> >> . >> |