Microsoft Responds to the Evolution of Online Communities
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From: Joe User on 5 May 2010 15:10 "Jef Gorbach" <jefgorbach(a)gmail.com> wrote: > So will google groups still access this forum once > it relocates?? That is not really possible, well at least not without significant investment by Google. Google relies on a particular network protocol (NNTP) to access the Microsoft forums archived on the MSnews server. Actually, Google relies on Giganews, which in turn relies on the MSnews server. Hypothetically, Microsoft might still mirror new forum activity on their MSnews server. That is how the current "Discussion Groups" forum works. But my understanding of their explanation is that they will not. They write: "Microsoft has a long history of establishing newsgroups that channel users and issues into the newsgroup (NNTP) space where information is shared and problems can be addressed by the community. [....] Using forums as the online support strategy will reduce the number of redundant resources and centralize content, making community contributions more broadly available and impactful. Beginning in June 2010, Microsoft will begin closing newsgroups and migrating users to Microsoft forums". It seems clear that they are contrasting "newsgroup" access with "forum" access, and they will be limiting access to the "forum" only through their interface. Theoretically, Google could design a program that "reads" the Microsoft web interface, sorts things out, and archives inquires and responses in the form that Google is accustomed to. After all, parsing HTML is Google's core business. However, I doubt that would happen. It would require that Google treat the Microsoft "newsgroups" differently from the many thousands of other newsgroups that Google archives. Moreover, Google Groups is not the only other way to access Microsoft newsgroups today. Even if GG implements a solution, users of the other alternatives will be affected adversely. To put all this in a positive light, I suspect that Microsoft's purpose is to shield its forums from spam. That would be a good thing, if Microsoft weren't so inept at supporting reliable forums. Of course, maybe Microsoft will change. ;-)
From: Joe User on 5 May 2010 17:44 I wrote: > "Jef Gorbach" <jefgorbach(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> So will google groups still access this forum >> once it relocates?? > > That is not really possible, well at least not > without significant investment by Google. I should clarify that I interpreted Jef's question to be: will Google Groups continue to track contributions made to the new forum? Two related questions are: (a) whether GG (or Giganews) will continue to permit posting to its own set of microsoft.public newsgroups, creating an independent forum in effect; and (b) even if not, whether GG will keep its huge archive of old postings to microsoft.public newsgroups for searching and reading, and for how long? I suspect the answers are "no" and "probably not". With respect to #a, the newsgroup system (Usenet) is composed of an unstructured set of computers that lack any central administration or authority. So theoretically, GG could continue to maintain an active set of microsoft.public newsgroups, allowing users to access them exclusively through the GG web interface. Giganews could do essentially the same thing, and GG would never know the difference. (I don't know if Giganews has a user interface of its own.) However, note that Microsoft is a trademarked name; and the content of the microsoft.public NGs originate on Microsoft servers. So I expect that Microsoft will require that all well-known mirrors of the microsoft.public NGs stop providing active acccess -- that is, accepting postings. With respect to #b, the same legal issue applies to merely retaining an archive of old microsoft.public NGs. Even though the archives themselves are the property of their owners (e.g. GG), the NG names still contain a trademarked name. Whether or not Microsoft will stand on that principle, or GG renames those NGs in its archive, remains to be seen. But in any case, I doubt that GG would permit read and search access on those NGs, but not write access (posting). Of course, I don't know. We might have to just wait and see. ----- original message ----- "Joe User" <joeu2004> wrote in message news:%23yFFpaI7KHA.5644(a)TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > "Jef Gorbach" <jefgorbach(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> So will google groups still access this forum once >> it relocates?? > > That is not really possible, well at least not without significant > investment by Google. > > Google relies on a particular network protocol (NNTP) to access the > Microsoft forums archived on the MSnews server. Actually, Google relies > on Giganews, which in turn relies on the MSnews server. > > Hypothetically, Microsoft might still mirror new forum activity on their > MSnews server. That is how the current "Discussion Groups" forum works. > > But my understanding of their explanation is that they will not. They > write: > > "Microsoft has a long history of establishing newsgroups that channel > users and issues into the newsgroup (NNTP) space where information is > shared and problems can be addressed by the community. [....] Using > forums as the online support strategy will reduce the number of redundant > resources and centralize content, making community contributions more > broadly available and impactful. Beginning in June 2010, Microsoft will > begin closing newsgroups and migrating users to Microsoft forums". > > It seems clear that they are contrasting "newsgroup" access with "forum" > access, and they will be limiting access to the "forum" only through their > interface. > > Theoretically, Google could design a program that "reads" the Microsoft > web interface, sorts things out, and archives inquires and responses in > the form that Google is accustomed to. After all, parsing HTML is > Google's core business. > > However, I doubt that would happen. It would require that Google treat > the Microsoft "newsgroups" differently from the many thousands of other > newsgroups that Google archives. > > Moreover, Google Groups is not the only other way to access Microsoft > newsgroups today. Even if GG implements a solution, users of the other > alternatives will be affected adversely. > > To put all this in a positive light, I suspect that Microsoft's purpose is > to shield its forums from spam. That would be a good thing, if Microsoft > weren't so inept at supporting reliable forums. > > Of course, maybe Microsoft will change. ;-)
From: Bruce Sinclair on 5 May 2010 19:26 In article <#WL3lhA7KHA.3184(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, "T. Valko" <biffinpitt(a)comcast.net> wrote: >I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum: > >http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx > >So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums. > >The new Excel forums are located at: > >http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx > >I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still a >web based forum! This is a backward step IMO. To me, newsgroups have everything that is good with nothing (well, OK, very little :) ) that is bad about the on line community. A short list of these would include: Quick and easy. Simple disply. Can get headers only and download just what you want to read. Properly threaded discussions. Access to hundreds/thousands of helpful knowlegeable people not only willing but eager to help. Text only (ie *not* web based). Many news readers available ... there's is bound to be something out there to suit everyone. Archived. Negatives ? Well, a few spammers and idiots ... but most news software has excellent filters, so that's taken care of. :) For myself, I will never use a browser to read news or "forums". It's too slow, too clunky and cumbersome, has bad to non existent threading, bad to no filters and is ugly, to name a few reasons. I guess there will be a few die hards <puts up hand> that stick with MS news groups, for a while at least, and it is likely there will still be some traffic for a while with a few people willing and able to help ... but it sounds like MS is trying to kill off this helpful support line. Given it's free to them, I can't imagine why they think this is a good idea.
From: T. Valko on 5 May 2010 21:13 I pretty much agree with everything you said. The best feature of NNTP ngs from my perspective is that it's very easy to watch a thread for possible follow-ups. I also like the speed and ease of access. -- Biff Microsoft Excel MVP "Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair(a)NOSPAMORELSEagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in message news:hrt2ap$pf7$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... > In article <#WL3lhA7KHA.3184(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, "T. Valko" > <biffinpitt(a)comcast.net> wrote: >>I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum: >> >>http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx >> >>So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums. >> >>The new Excel forums are located at: >> >>http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx >> >>I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still >>a >>web based forum! > > This is a backward step IMO. To me, newsgroups have everything that is > good > with nothing (well, OK, very little :) ) that is bad about the on line > community. A short list of these would include: > > Quick and easy. > Simple disply. > Can get headers only and download just what you want to read. > Properly threaded discussions. > Access to hundreds/thousands of helpful knowlegeable people not only > willing > but eager to help. > Text only (ie *not* web based). > Many news readers available ... there's is bound to be something out > there > to suit everyone. > Archived. > > Negatives ? Well, a few spammers and idiots ... but most news software has > excellent filters, so that's taken care of. :) > > > For myself, I will never use a browser to read news or "forums". It's too > slow, too clunky and cumbersome, has bad to non existent threading, bad to > no filters and is ugly, to name a few reasons. > > I guess there will be a few die hards <puts up hand> that stick with MS > news > groups, for a while at least, and it is likely there will still be some > traffic for a while with a few people willing and able to help ... but it > sounds like MS is trying to kill off this helpful support line. > > Given it's free to them, I can't imagine why they think this is a good > idea. > > > >
From: Jim Cone on 5 May 2010 22:40
I agree with you and Bruce. However... the new Answers site could be a winner if it used the Ribbon. <g> -- Jim Cone Portland, Oregon USA "T. Valko" <biffinpitt(a)comcast.net> wrote in message news:u0RXIlL7KHA.2220(a)TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... I pretty much agree with everything you said. The best feature of NNTP ngs from my perspective is that it's very easy to watch a thread for possible follow-ups. I also like the speed and ease of access. -- Biff Microsoft Excel MVP |