New usenet hierarchy proposal
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From: dpb on 10 May 2010 19:27 Karl E. Peterson wrote: .... > Wow! Interestingly enough, it is. That sort of confounds the notion of > "text only" access, doesn't it? I suppose I wouldn't have been able to > post the attachment from there, but it seems there's no issue with > reading it. Huh. Again, it's hit 'n miss on who allows extended features. It's best imo to remember that usenet is basically text-only w/ binary groups set up for the purpose. --
From: Schmidt on 10 May 2010 20:02 "Karl E. Peterson" <karl(a)exmvps.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:%23HD1lUJ8KHA.5328(a)TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... [a chance to maybe create a new namespace-hierarchy for the classic vb-language "somewhere" on a dedicated NewsServer...] > > I was only just made aware of the possibility, and we're > about 8 or 10 timezones apart so communications tend > to stretch out a bit at times. > Just trying to find out what the real expecations might > actually be, at this point. No problem - and although "the matter is a bit pressuring" - please don't feel yourself "forced into something" from my replies here - if a "globally working solution" should not be possible - well, then it's just not possible - and each national group has to proceed further with its own actions - just drop us as message here as soon as you know something more, in case the chances for that goal are not that good. > On another point (raised to all here!), is vbclassic or classicvb > actually better known (outside the beltway, so to speak) than > simply tagging it VB6 and letting that imply 32-bit versions? > I really dunno. I'd prefer vbclassic or vb6 - but could live as well with classicvb - IMO all these terms are not that different in their "recognizing-appearance". The terms with the two leading 'vb' chars could ensure in (some) NewsClients an easier recognition whilst using the filter-function on "available ServerGroups". Olaf
From: dpb on 10 May 2010 20:22 Schmidt wrote: > "Karl E. Peterson" <karl(a)exmvps.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:%23DJ9XHI8KHA.5808(a)TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > >> I actually "know someone" who might be in a position >> to facilitate group creation and propogation, so that may >> not be as large an issue as it might seem. Looking into that. > Sounds great. > If this "someone" is an experienced UseNet-Admin, who > already is hosting and mirroring several UseNet-Groups, then > the creation of a dedicated and new vbclassic.* (or classicvb.*) > namespace should not take "huge efforts" for somebody like that > (as I see it). > These new groups could (for the first few weeks - until the > namespace is allowed to propagate "officially") very well run > separated from the "common UseNet", but being accessible > already over this leading NewsServer, which these groups > were created on. That surely seems to me to be overkill--I'll ask again what's wrong w/ the existing comp.lang.basic.visual.* hierarchy? Nothing required to be done except use it and it isn't as though it's overly active currently so would be usurping somebody else's bailiwick... .... >> My gut says sticking with usenet is a better long-term strategy >> than going hybrid at this point. If the intent is to keep the >> community alive *and* discoverable. > The same concerns were also mentioned in the german group, > where the "MailingList+Gmane coupling approach" is not > among the "preferred solutions" anymore. > > Nonetheless I've not (yet) have given up hope, that we > can ensure an "international solution", to not disrupt the > different vbclassic-communities to "different servers or > usenet-namespaces". > I see this very "english-speaking group" as something as the > center of the vbclassic-knowledge, where also the regulars > from different countries place (but also gather up) new > information and then "spread it" back in their national > vbclassic-groups. .... That's the thing of usenet as it exists--it _IS_ international. I've not looked specifically but I presume there are also existing groups in the de.* namespace aren't there??? What I don't follow is why there's any difference in effect of the folks who have been following m.p.vb.g.d on the ms servers simply continuing as they have except on a different server and group that already exists whereever they are located; there's no fundamental difference in hooking up their same client to point to a different news server (which they're going to have to do anyway). And, of course, it's still to be seen whether the existing groups will actually cease to exist on the mirrors anyway. Again, simply $0.02...ya'll can do what ya' wants, of course... --
From: Karl E. Peterson on 10 May 2010 21:13 Schmidt wrote: >> I was only just made aware of the possibility, and we're >> about 8 or 10 timezones apart so communications tend >> to stretch out a bit at times. >> Just trying to find out what the real expecations might >> actually be, at this point. > > No problem - and although "the matter is a bit pressuring" - > please don't feel yourself "forced into something" from my > replies here - if a "globally working solution" should not be > possible - well, then it's just not possible - and each national > group has to proceed further with its own actions - just drop > us as message here as soon as you know something more, > in case the chances for that goal are not that good. If/when I find out more, I'll be sure to post here. >> On another point (raised to all here!), is vbclassic or classicvb >> actually better known (outside the beltway, so to speak) than >> simply tagging it VB6 and letting that imply 32-bit versions? >> I really dunno. > > I'd prefer vbclassic or vb6 - but could live as well with > classicvb - IMO all these terms are not that different in > their "recognizing-appearance". > > The terms with the two leading 'vb' chars could ensure > in (some) NewsClients an easier recognition whilst using > the filter-function on "available ServerGroups". Yeah, I suppose. I tend to simply search available groups for "vb", but being able to search for ".vb" would potentially reduce some confusion, I suppose? And using VB6 would be pretty damned unambiguous. I have no idea if hyphens are allowed (VB4-6 or VB5-6), but I'm pretty sure slashes aren't (as someone else suggested with VB5/6.) I suppose a case could also be made for segregating 16-bit VB, but I'd have to think there's *very* little of that still occurring, and the folks in a VB6 group would still be the most likely to have a clue. -- ..NET: It's About Trust! http://vfred.mvps.org
From: Schmidt on 10 May 2010 22:01
"dpb" <none(a)non.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:hsa83t$9if$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... [establishing an "international group-hierarchy" behind vbclassic.*] > That surely seems to me to be overkill--I'll ask again what's > wrong w/ the existing comp.lang.basic.visual.* hierarchy? Basically nothing, but thinking about it there are a few reasons... 1. Although the VB.NET users will get appropriate Web-Forums for their language by MS, I'd suspect, that many of the devs over there would prefer access over a NewsClient further (yes, I know about "that MS-NNTP- bridge" already, but doubt that this client-tool will be "broadly accepted"). So, what would be your arguments in comp.lang.basic.visual.* in case a larger amount of these devs decides, that this is a proper place for them as well, to discuss "their visual language" (not even implying, that *any* of them will behave "troll-like") 2. I could imagine, that in many countries, where the traffic is lower than in this group - and maybe the regulars also not that experienced with usenet, the msnews.microsoft.com- server is seen as the only choice - and the group(s) there would definitely die then, after the plug was pulled. 3. The "how would we be found"-question... As already mentioned in another post - this nowadays depends (in case of new potential group-users of probably "younger age") on a "well-advertised Info-Website" - which after some time and cross-linking needs to get a high "google-rank". This rank could be higher, if we would provide a central info-page, with a "unified procedure", on how to set-up a NewsClient for all the different "country-groups at once" - and if this site would then be cross-referenced not only from sites in english- speaking countries. > That's the thing of usenet as it exists--it _IS_ international. That depends on, what namespace-parts are listed on the mirrors (and NewsServers of the different ISPs) in the several countries (depending on what is considered "interesting" for the users there by the "local" UseNet-admins). > I've not looked specifically but I presume there are also > existing groups in the de.* namespace aren't there??? Not that "well-matching ones" as e.g. comp.lang.basic.visual.* But the migration into the de.* namespace is one of the two currently favourized options in the german vb-group, yes. And well, we know (in the meantime more), about the procedures and required actions, to initiate the (somewhat) bureaucratic processes which would lead (after some time) to new de.vbclassic-groups - but as written in "point 2" above - this might not be the case in less frequented groups with "less strong" communities in the different countries. > What I don't follow is why there's any difference in effect > of the folks who have been following m.p.vb.g.d on the ms > servers simply continuing as they have except on a different > server and group that already exists whereever they are located; > there's no fundamental difference in hooking up their same > client to point to a different news server (which they're > going to have to do anyway). That may seem to be easy for you, since you know how usenet works - but already the process to subscribe to one of the "free NewsServers" (in case the ISP, where one got his DSL-connection from has no such thing to offer) can be too much for many users who currently only have the relative simple 'msnews.microsoft.com' setup in the back of their mind. > And, of course, it's still to be seen whether the existing groups > will actually cease to exist on the mirrors anyway. And that's something I would not want to rely on, although there *are* some discussions about the "msnews-shutdown topic" among (at least the german) usenet-admins, which I was following the last days, in the appropriate de.admin.*-group. Olaf |