Questions about 11.2 and KDE4
in [Suse]
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From: stan on 24 Nov 2009 15:03 houghi wrote: > > > stan wrote: >> I find it interesting that no one in my house from 6 to 60 likes the >> new KDE4. Doesn't mean it's bad, I just thought maybe it was me. I >> spend the vast majority of my time at a command line and touch the >> mouse rarely, but my grandchildren grew up with gui's and they don't >> get it either. > > I find it interesting that apparently the KDE developers do not listen > or do not hear about this enough. LET THEM KNOW. There are KDE meetings > at openSUSE that you can join over IRC. LET THEM KNOW. I have talked to KDE developers; we disagree on the future. >> I don't intend this as a whine, it's simply a statement about a choice >> I don't agree with and maybe this will be another data point to let >> the developers know what the masses are experiencing. I'm not going to >> 11.2 and this will probably be my last SUSE distribution. > > Not here. This group is about helping people who have problems. > Developers do not read this group. That said, every time I speak with > developers, what they want to have is feedback. As you well know, KDE is not SUSE. openSUSE isn't under a gun to willy nilly accept whatever comes from KDE. Maybe if a couple of distributions refused to upgrade at least for awhile, then KDE would feel some pressure to listen. I don't know, but as long as everyone goes along like lemmings, then I don't see anything changing. The current growing pains will probably subside and many who are displeased now will grow to accept this direction. I realize I'm in a minority and I can live with that and I'm sure SUSE will get along just fine even if I'm not around any more. On another point, the KDE side cites their usability studies to justify much of the current direction. The thing is that I can't actually find one person that agrees with their studies. Maybe my world is small or completely different than the one they are studying. Every new release brings higher traffic, but the KDE4 based releases seem to be causing some fundamental noise. I won't call the developers liars, but it seems like maybe they are working on a line where people either love or hate the current interface and their studies are missing something. You would think that at a large university I would be able to find one geek who approves of the interface, but a survey two months ago unanimously panned KDE4. Maybe I just need to get out more? I don't think I would be really comfortable in their shoes; but then again that's why I don't program user interfaces if I can possibly find a way to avoid it. It's a very hard job and you will never make everyone satisfied. Your point is well taken though that most people would do better directly talking to developers. I did that, made my case, and lost. Although it's really annoying when people don't agree, you have to know when to pick your battles :)
From: Paul J Gans on 24 Nov 2009 17:12 houghi <houghi(a)houghi.org.invalid> wrote: >Paul J Gans wrote: >> Good to know. But why was it removed from YAST? Just to annoy >> old users of openSUSE? >As explained in the Release Notes, xorg.conf does not exist anymore. As >that is not there anymore, why would it be needed in YaST? We are talking about a tool to fix color depth and screen resolution. That has traditionally been located in YAST. Why move it out of YAST? Just to be difficult? That's what I don't understand. It has nothing to do with xorg.conf. It has nothing to do with anything except a desire to be different. -- --- Paul J. Gans
From: Paul J Gans on 24 Nov 2009 17:21 houghi <houghi(a)houghi.org.invalid> wrote: >Paul J Gans wrote: >> I don't quite agree. What I've seen is that functionality >> has been hidden. That isn't giving the user more control. >> The user is getting less. >So you agree, not disagree with me. ;-) ><snip> >> There's no objection on my part to adding new functionality >> or to adding new eye candy as long as they don't take old >> functionality away. >And what do the KDE developers say about that? The only thing we can do >here is applaud, discuss or moan about what is going on, but we are like >a forrest where nobody will hear the tree fall. You've always been on a different track than many of us. You have to understand that I USE linux every day all the time. My one "recreation" is to read this and a few other newsgroups. All linux distributions are based on linux. All use gcc, provide emacs and vi, and dozens of other tools. What makes distributions different is their look and feel. One expects a certain kind of continuity between editions of a distribution. Most of the popular ones have maintained a look and feel because their users have almost no learning curve in using them. OpenSUSE is of course free to do what it wants. But with 11.2 they seem to have broken the look and feel in a rather drastic manner. I assume that they had a reason for doing this. I have reasons for not liking it very much. And it isn't so much the look, it is the feel. And that is going to be somewhat independent of what desktop manager you use. I'm used to certain things being done in YAST. And I'm used to other things being controlled by fairly easy to find configuration files in /etc. I am particularly used to the convention that says that a left mouse click activates what one is clicking on, and a right mouse click gives a menu of options for whata one is clicking on. I right click on the KDE desktop and I get a list of sensible options for the desktop. I right click on the menu bar at the bottom of the display and I get a list of sensible options for the menu bar. This is what I mean by the "feel" of a system. KDE4 seems to have changed all that. I can learn all the new things in the new feel. But if I'm going to do that, I might as well look at other distributions to see if I like their "feel" better. No problem there. What I don't understand is why the KDE folks found it so necessary to change the feel -- and why openSUSE found it so necessary to follow them. -- --- Paul J. Gans
From: Paul J Gans on 24 Nov 2009 17:26 houghi <houghi(a)houghi.org.invalid> wrote: >Paul J Gans wrote: >> I'm set for the next year or so. I'm looking to see where I >> go *after* that. >As you (and many others) seem so focussed on KDE3, perhaps back to >Windows? No, this is not trolling. I cannot do in Windows what I need to do on a computer. Period. >It is as if KDE3 is the only thing that exists out there, is the only >good thing and nothing else matters. No. See my recent post about the "feel" of a distribution. >If that is the case, why is it not yet forked? Fork it and if you >desire, call it something different. I am not talking to a person >individually. I am talking to all people who seem to be moaning how bad >KDE4 is and how great KDE3 is. >For all I know you are right with that. Then start doing something about >it. Untill then, KDE3 will be dropped, there will be only KDE4 that you >won't like and a good alternative might be back to Windows. Houghi, when I retire, I might do that. Right now I have no time. I need to get things done. And no, you don't want my rant on Windows. Windows is a device to keep the user from actually USING the computer. It lets you play, and it lets you run canned packages. Some folks can actually do productive work on such a machine. But they are often acting like data entry people and not at all being creative. That's the start of the rant. You don't want the rest. -- --- Paul J. Gans
From: Paul J Gans on 24 Nov 2009 17:28
houghi <houghi(a)houghi.org.invalid> wrote: >stan wrote: >> I find it interesting that no one in my house from 6 to 60 likes the >> new KDE4. Doesn't mean it's bad, I just thought maybe it was me. I >> spend the vast majority of my time at a command line and touch the >> mouse rarely, but my grandchildren grew up with gui's and they don't >> get it either. >I find it interesting that apparently the KDE developers do not listen >or do not hear about this enough. LET THEM KNOW. There are KDE meetings >at openSUSE that you can join over IRC. LET THEM KNOW. >> I don't intend this as a whine, it's simply a statement about a choice >> I don't agree with and maybe this will be another data point to let >> the developers know what the masses are experiencing. I'm not going to >> 11.2 and this will probably be my last SUSE distribution. >Not here. This group is about helping people who have problems. >Developers do not read this group. That said, every time I speak with >developers, what they want to have is feedback. Then perhaps they ought to spend a few minutes of their precious time (and it is precious) reading this group? -- --- Paul J. Gans |