From: Betov on 17 May 2007 02:50
//\\\\o//\\\\annabee <Wannabee(a)wannabee.org> �crivait
> I wonder why you care.
Because, in order:
* Without beginners, a language is dead.
* Beginners need valid Tutorials, where to start from, and there exists
close to nothing, in this category.
* Such Tutorials need to be proof-readed intensively, because they
are way more difficult and way more complicated to write than Megas
of free bullshits: The smaller and the easier to read, the more
difficult to write.
> RosAsm not an tool for promoting asm. Its a tool for demonstration
Maybe, but if the beginners do not even download it, there is no
risk, for them, to ever see any demonstration.
> Herberts input on RosAsm, in this case, is completly useless, as he is
> not in favor of using asm for producing full applications anyways.
> And why is he not in favor? Because he never did it. And if he did
> it, why is he then not in favor? Because he was usings a faulty
> assembler. Herbert doesnt understand to what extent RosAsm is diffrent
> from his assembler. He cannot see it. And the diffrence, that he
> cannot see, is staggering.
I know that Herbert is completely crazy, just like me and you.
So said, there is no doubt on his competencies, and on the fact that,
if he had been able to let his deliriums aside, for a couple of hours,
his feedback on these materials would have been of more weight to us
than anything else, at the level of the pedagogical organization.
< http://rosasm.org >
From: rhyde on 17 May 2007 10:10
On May 16, 10:56 pm, //\\\\o//\\\\annabee <Wanna...(a)wannabee.org>
> I wonder why you care. Isnt the material allready in BU_ASM _WAY_ over the
> needed amount to learn the basics of assembly? (enough to get going)?
Then why aren't people learning assembly language using B_U_ASM? To
date, you and a select few others are the only ones claiming to have
learned assembly language this way. Hardly proof of your claims.
> I mean, an asm programmer that wants to learn asm, is unstoppable anyway,
This is obvious. The real question is how easy does the material make
it for an average person who is only "interested" or maybe even
*uninterested* in the subject to learn it. This is the *real* test of
> The RosAsm IDE, and the debugger and the how to make win32 calls, and so
> on, is probably more then enough for him.
I don't know who "him" is, but given that you've been using this
approach for three years now and still claim to be a beginner doesn't
strengthen your argument.
> Why focus so much effort on theese small asm tutorials? RosAsm main
> advantage is its exceptional efficiency as a _tool_ for programming.
Then why is it that most people who look at it immediately put it back
down and switch to something else? The mere fact that it doesn't
support statically-linked libraries is enough proof for most people
that it is *not* an "exceptional effciency tool."
> Regardless of asm. How the tool is composed, makes the programmer flow
> when using it.
Yeah, and the lack of library support is the biggest constriction for
> Thats the message I want to send.
You've been sending it for three years now. No one is buying your
> RosAsm not an tool for promoting asm.
That's for sure.
> Its a tool for demonstration what a
> superb tool asm can be in hands of the programming community.
Really? How is that? I don't see too many people in the programming
community using it. If it were such a superb tool as you claim, why
aren't more people using it?
> RosAsm is more then the sum of its parts.
One would hope that it's more than the sum of its parts, because the
parts aren't very good.
> RosAsm is a _programming_ tool,
So is a hex editor. That doesn't make a hex editor a superb
> making use of asm, only because asm has been shown to be the clearest and
> most comphrensive language for programming.
Really? Where has this been "shown"?
> RosAsm isnt a mere assembler.
That's right. It's a *broken* assembler. :-)
> Its an Integral Assembler Experience.
Wow. Will the buzzwords ever stop flowing?
> RosAsm isnt just a rebirth of
It's the death of assembly. :-)
> RosAsm is the most efficient way of programming alltogether.
Where's your proof of this claim?
> You should likly even be careful when calling RosAsm an assembler,
Yeah, because it's a "preparser". Even has a "preparser" statement, if
you want proof.
> this, standing alone, gives the impression that RosAsm is as faulty
RosAsm *is* faulty.
> poor as the rest of this sorid bunch of assemblers. (MASM, TASM, ect,
> etc). And nothing could be further from the truth.
Yet those assemblers have four orders of magnitude more users. I
wonder why that is?
> Herberts input on RosAsm, in this case, is completly useless,
Yes, you guys ignore *all* input on RosAsm that isn't a rubber stamp
of your inflated opinions of the product.
> as he is not
> in favor of using asm for producing full applications anyways.
That would describe 99.99% of the world's programming population, so
Herbert isn't particularly special.
> And why is
> he not in favor?
The better question to ask is why people like you are in favor of
using assembly for everything.
> Because he never did it.
What makes you say that?
One could just as easily argue that you have insufficient experience
with HLLs to make the claims you're making about assembly language.
> And if he did it, why is he then
> not in favor?
Probably because he *does* have appropriate HLL programming
> Because he was usings a faulty assembler.
RosAsm wouldn't change his mind.
> Herbert doesnt understand to what extent RosAsm is diffrent from his
> assembler. He cannot see it. And the diffrence, that he cannot see, is
What difference is that?
> Its the diffrence between raw seewater, which will make you die thirsty if
> your drink it, and the purest destilled mountain water, with nutrient
> salts added - crafted through a conscient effort and with a deep knowledge
> of the path that leads to the most competative, most compelling and most
> reaping application developments, in the language that the unfaithful and
> ignorant left behind to pursue the quest for money at the alter of
> degradation of the human spirit.
> The focus of RosAsm should be to say why RosAsm is diffrent. Why RosAsm
> can compete with the most in use DEVELOPMENT tools. Not a tool for
> teaching asm, but a tool for giving humanity and pride back to programmers.
If it were so good, why aren't more people using it?
From: //o//annabee on 18 May 2007 01:05
P� Thu, 17 May 2007 08:50:57 +0200, skrev Betov <betov(a)free.fr>:
> //\\\\o//\\\\annabee <Wannabee(a)wannabee.org> �crivait
>> I wonder why you care.
> Because, in order:
> * Without beginners, a language is dead.
> * Beginners need valid Tutorials, where to start from, and there exists
> close to nothing, in this category.
I dont agree. There exists enourmous amounts of material. Since many many
Next I would say, RosAsm is a good place to start, with a File/New/Exe
template, doing a ExitProcess call. Incremental, interactive learning, is
imo a good and valid, and proven way. The debugger makes the offer
complete. For one who wants to code.
So I think..you will have to start looking for the reason somewhere else.
And as far as I have read your 1000s of posts, and the material in BU_ASM
[my case], you have allready pointed out much of the real reason. And more
material will not help.
I am afraid that the days have passed, since long, that you could get any
beginners, without some kind of advertizing. I mean, if people do not know
about you, any work you did or did not do, will not show up on their
radar, right? And even so, theres still the question of beliving illusions
Maybe you could write a book. (no, I am serious). I be the first to read
it. Even if in French.
From: Frank Kotler on 19 May 2007 01:57
> TiddlyWiki a reusable non-linear personal web notebook
You *do* come up with interesting links, Nathan!
I couldn't resist playing with it...
(I figured out where Verizon's been keeping my website! :)
This isn't anything but a "hello world" to see if I had the tool
working. (I guess so...) I'm not sure I like the interface... I think
I'd rather click the "back" button than have to find the "close" button
that only appears when the mouse cursor is over the "tiddler" in
question. May be too "non-linear" for me - I already see signs of it's
getting "out of control"... Sure is cool, though! *Very* easy to use!
Won't win any prizes for smallest code...
Feel free to "play" with it. You won't be able to save your changes. I
*think* that can be arranged, if anyone wants to.
This is only a test.
Question for Betov: If/when I get around to updating my site, there
*will* be a link to HLA there - that's non-negotiable. Do you want a
link to RosAsm there or not? (I'll put 'en as far apart as possible)
From: Betov on 19 May 2007 02:48
Frank Kotler <fbkotler(a)verizon.net> �crivait news:jlw3i.89$ky6.48(a)trnddc02:
> Question for Betov: If/when I get around to updating my site, there
> *will* be a link to HLA there - that's non-negotiable. Do you want a
> link to RosAsm there or not? (I'll put 'en as far apart as possible)
My position has always been 100% clear:
If a site shows any reference to Randall Hyde or to HLA,
i request that any reference to RosAsm be removed from
such an anti-ethical and anti-assembly place.
< http://rosasm.org >