From: Betov on 13 May 2007 14:28
"Jim Carlock" <anonymous(a)127.0.0.1> �crivait news:464727ab$0$15129
> "Evenbit" wrote...
> : "This 'ExitProcess' is a Function of the OS (in 'KERNEL32.DLL,
> : exactly), its job is to terminate the Program's Execution"
> Don't need all those words.
> "ExitProcess terminates the program."
> "Use ExitProcess to terminate a program and return control to the
> starting application."
It would be much long fun if each sentence would be discussed,
with each one his opinion, and i appreciate the short form,
because - as opposed to a famous someone - i believe that "the
shorter the better", but your above propositions are out of
The purpose of this, is to explain what a line like:
call 'KERNEL32.ExitProcess', 0
.... could be, as well as its components.
< http://rosasm.org >
From: Betov on 13 May 2007 14:40
Herbert Kleebauer <klee(a)unibwm.de> �crivait news:46472721.6DC8CB47
> Evenbit wrote:
>> On May 13, 10:11 am, Betov <b...(a)free.fr> wrote:
>> > Frank Kotler <fbkot...(a)verizon.net> �crivait news:XvE1i.64243
>> > OK, let's go for "which terminates the Program's Execution".
>> How about...
>> "This 'ExitProcess' is a Function of the OS (in 'KERNEL32.DLL,
>> exactly), its job is to terminate the Program's Execution"
> I don't think "ExitProcess" terminates the program's execution.
> The program has terminated itself by calling "ExitProcess".
> "ExitProcess" is not the executioner but the mortician who has
> to dispose the corpse. It is a suicide an not a murder.
I don't really know, but what of the left over Threads, Handles,
and the like, that are close _by_ "ExitProcess", and not by the
Application? If this was "a suicide an not a murder", i suppose
they would be left as they are, instead of being closed.
So said, this is not the kind of discussion that could really
help as a proof reading, and i am quite sure that there are way
more important details than these, going wrong and to be improved,
in these Tutorials.
By the way, Herbert, wasn't it you, who got a discussion with
Master Pdf about how good Tutorials should be written, and how
they should help a beginner at learning Assembly in a couple
If yes, and if you could forget your home made syntax for a couple
of hours, i would appreciate your criticisms, at the level of the
< http://rosasm.org >
From: Herbert Kleebauer on 13 May 2007 18:13
> Herbert Kleebauer <klee(a)unibwm.de> �crivait news:46472721.6DC8CB47
> So said, this is not the kind of discussion that could really
> help as a proof reading, and i am quite sure that there are way
> more important details than these, going wrong and to be improved,
> in these Tutorials.
It wasn't meant as an answer for you but a comment for a
discussion about finding the "right" words to describe
something without proofing whether this "something" is
correct at all.
> By the way, Herbert, wasn't it you, who got a discussion with
> Master Pdf about how good Tutorials should be written, and how
> they should help a beginner at learning Assembly in a couple
> of days?
> If yes, and if you could forget your home made syntax for a couple
> of hours, i would appreciate your criticisms, at the level of the
> pedagogical logic.
I already told you, RPL doesn't allow me to use RosAsm. And as far
as I could see from the parts posted here, it is about using RosAsm
and not about assembly programming. Before you can use an assembler
you must know something about the language of the processor. Before
you can use a word processing program you first need to know a
language, otherwise you only can type a sequence of letters without
any meaning. So a tutorial about a text processing program (or an
assembler) doesn't make any sense when not preceded by a tutorial
about a language (CPU instruction set, exe file format, OS interface).
Now you can say, your tutorial is only for people who already know the
language of the processor. But this also doesn't make any sense. If
somebody already knows the language of the CPU, then he already has
used an assembler to learn this language an why the hell should he
then start to use RosAsm instead of the assembler he already is used
to? And if he really wants to switch to RosAsm, then he doesn't need
a beginners tutorial but a well written reference manual.
From: rhyde on 13 May 2007 19:10
On May 13, 12:59 am, Betov <b...(a)free.fr> wrote:
> > 2) Is it someone who has already learned how to program in a HLL and
> > now wants to learn assembly?
> > answer: again, probably not. Rene tells us that learning assembly
> > language is easier than learning a HLL, and that people shouldn't
> > bother with HLLs.
> Why not, clown? A beginner who would already have learned an HLL
> will, of course, have additional difficulties at undertanding
> Assembly, and how simple and easy it is. But... what can i do
> about this?
Alas, your tutorial, as Herbert has pointed out, is suitable only for
someone who already knows an assembly language. Nowhere do you explain
the purpose of most of the instructions you present, or even what an
instruction is. As I have pointed out in "debates" about assembly
language instruction in this very newsgroup over and over again,
students (beginners) who are trying to pick up assembly language don't
have much in the way of prerequisite knowledge. Your tutorial makes
all types of assumptions about knowledge that a beginner just won't
> > 3) Is it someone who has never programmed before and wants to learn
> > programming using assembly language?
> > answer: this would be the audience that Rene's past posts would
> > suggest.
> Yes, it is, clown.
You seem to think that learning the syntax of an assembly language is
all someone needs to know in order to write assembly language
programs. Even if I thrown in "knowing the semantics of each
instruction" to the mix as well, such knowledge is insufficient for
becoming a programmer *in any language*. The fact that you don't
recognize this simply demonstrates that you're quite correct when you
say (in CLAX) that you don't know much about teaching beginners.
> > It would also help if, prior to this point, there was *some*
> > explanation of how to use the editor, the menus, stuff like that. A
> > *pure text* explanation of the system would be most helpful here.
> Well... for your other criticisms, nobody has any doubt on the fact
> that you could write a one Mega Pdf for explaining how to use a Menu,
> or two Megas about what a mouse button is...
Which people will read and learn from, whereas they get a couple of
paragraphs into material like your's and immediately give up because
it makes no sense whatsoever at all.
If you think this is funny, just ask yourself -- why do people
continue to read the "one Mega Pdf" and continue to ignore tutorials
like the one you've written?
> But, here, the target was to write a Tutorials set that would be as
> _short_, as _simple_, and as _easy_ as possible.
They are short, that is true.
One could even argue that they are simple.
And it was probably easy to write them.
However, as they don't really explain anything in a way a beginner
could understand, they do not serve their purpose. They wind up being
a waste of the reader's time. As I've said already, you require *far*
too much prerequisite knowledge for anyone to make sense of your
tutorial. You confuse "ease of pressing the [F8] key and watching the
screen change" with "ease of learning".
> Time will tell if they reach their purpose, and what difficulties the
> beginners could encount with it, but, considering the complete failure
> of your "Top-Down" method, as regulary demonstrated at all medias, by
> the amaizing difficulties encounted by your victims, i am afraid that
> it will be difficult to do worse than what you did.
By what benchmark do you claim my methods are a complete failure? I've
actually had my pedagogy class room and laboratory tested. I get
emails all the time from people telling me how they finally figured
the stuff out by reading AoA, after failing with other approaches
before. What have you got to demonstrate that your method is any
> For now, from the feedback of the couple of beginners, who have read
> the Twelve Lessons, i do not have indications about difficulties, and
> they seem to be happy of these materials. What did they really _learn_,
> i have no idea, but, at least they did not complain about difficulties.
Why don't you have them post their experiences *here*.
> You know... i have also seen guys asking questions like:
> "I have downloaded RosAsm, but i don't know how to install it because
> there is no Installer".
> "I have been told that RosAsm includes a Disassembler, but i do not
> find where it is".
> In such cases, i am not sure if it is really usefull to explain where
> the Mouse is, and what a Menu is. You should know of this, as long as,
> with your IQ under 80, you belong to these hopeless cases.
And this is why you will fail with your tutorials. Your continuing
antagonistic responses about beginners and their questions. It's
amusing that you cherry-pick the few successes you've had and hold
them up as "proof" that your system works, and then simply claim that
the less brilliant people out there aren't worth dealing with. Well,
be my guest. These are exactly the people who come over and find AoA
to their liking.
Oh, and BTW, do you honestly think that *every* HLA user has had
difficulties installing HLA? Most of them just run the installation
program and they're in business. Once in a great while someone has a
system configuration problem, or they decide to set things up
differently than the instructions tell them too, and they have
problems. Obviously, you have the same sorts of issues with beginners.
The difference is that I don't go around insulting the intelligence of
these people, I try to solve their problems rather than tell them I'm
not interested in them using my product because they are too stupid.
From: Jim Carlock on 13 May 2007 21:44
"Jim Carlock" �crivait:
> "Use ExitProcess to terminate a program and return control to
> the starting application."
: It's more fun if each sentence would be discussed, with each
: one his opinion, and i appreciate the short form, because - as
: opposed to a famous someone - i believe that "the shorter the
: better", but your above propositions are out of context:
: The purpose of this, is to explain what a line like:
: call 'KERNEL32.ExitProcess', 0
: ... could be, as well as its components.
Use ExitProcess to terminate a program and return control to
the starting application/environment.
I think HTML all the time. HTML is probably the best format
available and it offers a heck of a lot more than pdf, hlp and
other formats. I never liked the Microsoft hlp, and I think most
of the world prefers html over hlp.
When I first posted I was thinking you wanted to provide some
inline help somewhere in RosAsm, such as a tooltip text. But it
seems like you want to provide better help and more help than
just a tooltip. So think along the lines of links inside the tooltip
where one can click upon those. Or think of a right-click drop-
down menu system.
So a right-click could present options, a drop-down menu with
a list of appropriate words. This means that you'll probably want
to look into some kind of in memory database(?)/array of indexed
Now with that in mind, it'll need a special format that gets read
into memory. There should be an option to turn this kind of help
on and off so it doesn't slow down anyone that does not want
So the first thing would be think about what gets placed on the
drop-down menu. The database will take some time to work
through and figure out... so here's what I'm thinking:
Drop down menu items... (items always present).
Turn off AHS / Turn on AHS (advanced help system)
Copy Tooltip Text (this menu item provides a way for someone
to copy and paste the tooltip to perhaps a text document. Tooltips
end up short and sweet, and this could be helpful for setting up
internal documentation for the application. It's a big plus as far
as internal documenting goes.)
Copy API Function Name (this menu item displays itself when
the mouse is right clicked upon any API function or parameter
Copy API Function ALL (If someone wants to paste the whole
API declaration into the document, this provides a great help.
I think this could work along with an Intellisense feature, or it
could replace Intellisense altogether. I haven't really put much
thought into it, so some others comments are welcome on whether
they prefer such a system or if they prefer the intellisense or
perhaps both systems.)
Jump To Help (This could be a little friendlier, just trying to keep
it short here. The purpose is to open the HTML document
and jump to the appropriate page/link.)
I don't want to make a 1000 word post, so I'm cutting it short.
These concepts are placed into the public domain provided no
one already established a patent on them.
Post replies to the group.