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From: Indi on 9 May 2010 12:20 On 2010-05-09, Michel Talon <talon(a)lpthe.jussieu.fr> wrote: > Indi <indi(a)satcidananda.16x108.merseine.nu> wrote: >> >> Using it as my primary (usually sole) OS since 2004. > > Apparently i am beating you, i began using FreeBSD with the 2.2.5 in > 1997. > It seems you're very concerned that everyone knows you're not merely another user who wants big change, but a Very Important Long Time user who wants big change. But frankly, you come off as someone who was doing alright until you made the mistake of buying some hardware without checking whether or not it was suitable for use with FreeBSD and then you went into tantrum mode. Or worse, someone just telling stories. If you're so happy with Ubuntu, I don't see why you're so determined to sit around here running down FreeBSD. Makes you look like a troll, really... -- Caveat utilitor, indi
From: Michel Talon on 9 May 2010 13:48 Indi <indi(a)satcidananda.16x108.merseine.nu> wrote: > It seems you're very concerned that everyone knows you're not merely > another user who wants big change, but a Very Important Long Time user > who wants big change. Not at all. I am just one user (of zero importance, i am not a sysadmin or in a position to impose my choices to anyone, but i pretend to be extremely well informed) who is being fed up of seeing people giving bad advice to newbies. I don't want to convert people who are used to FreeBSD, i am myself using FreeBSD on my desktop, but newbies should not expect to find something miraculously better with FreeBSD than Ubuntu, on the contrary there is 90% probability that they will be happier with Ubuntu. I am certainly not the only one with this opinion. Take for example http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?p=81197 Another stronghold is lost: http://blog.hagander.net/archives/16...e-updates.html " The biggest change is that we will be moving our services off FreeBSD, that we use now, onto Debian GNU/Linux. At the same time, we will switch virtualization solution from FreeBSD Jails to KVM. FreeBSD jails have served us very well over time, but now that we have access to a well working KVM product that uses hardware virtualization, the gains of having full virtualization are much easier to get at. One of the main drivers for the change is that maintaining ports-based installs are just taking way too much time. The new system will be based heavily around using Debian packages and the apt system, to the point that everything being installed will always be done using "meta-packages" that will ensure that all our machines look the same way. This also plugs into our monitoring systems very well, making applying (security) updates across the many machines much easier. In particular, it should get rid of what's sometimes a multi-day operation to get everything security patched, due to dependencies and the slowness of updating ports. It is quite possible - in fact, I'd say probable - that there are perfectly fine ways of doing this on FreeBSD. But this outlines another big reason for this change - it's simply a lot easier to find people who can do these things on a Linux based system today. Our efforts are entirely volunteer based, and in the end we just don't have people who know enough FreeBSD volunteering to do this work. In fact, we have had several people retire from the sysadmin team over the years specifically because they refuse to work with FreeBSD. We don't expect this change to magically create more volunteers, but it will make it easier to recruit in the future. " Note the argument: "maintaining ports-based installs are just taking way too much time." This is completely true. > But frankly, you come off as someone who was doing alright until you > made the mistake of buying some hardware without checking whether or > not it was suitable for use with FreeBSD and then you went into tantrum > mode. I doubt very much you can buy a modern laptop which fully works under FreeBSD. So your argument is complete bullshit. Moreover people expect to be able to buy a "standard" PC anywhere and run FreeBSD on it. This is mostly true for desktops but blatantly false for laptops. It is a fact, whatever you are saying, that you can run Ubuntu without problem on basically all desktops and laptops. The probability that it will work is the same as with Windows. Hence i maintain that hardware support is poor on FreeBSD, and good in Linux. -- Michel TALON
From: Indi on 9 May 2010 13:56 On 2010-05-09, Bob Eager <rde42(a)spamcop.net> wrote: > On Sun, 09 May 2010 16:11:41 +0000, Indi wrote: > >> On 2010-05-09, Chronos <me3(a)privacy.net> wrote: >>> >>> The problem with package binary installers is that you often end up >>> with multiple copies of the same library installed. PBIs have every >>> dependency in the package, so 1) it's a waste of disk space and 2) you >>> end up playing some very clever but potentially very fragile games with >>> the linker. For those reasons alone I can't see mainstream FreeBSD >>> adopting these with any enthusiasm, although for desktop- specific >>> PC-BSD it's a very clever solution. >>> >>> >> Exactly. There's been a lot of pointless complaining by a couple of >> people here; they should just use PC-BSD (or whatever they want). All >> the attempts at sowing seeds of discord just because they feel their >> needs are unmet by FBSD are frankly quite tedious. > > Especially when they say they don't actually use FreeBSD any more... > Yeah, really. People who hold up Ubuntu as some sort of example of what to strive for are not exactly credible. :) -- Caveat utilitor, indi
From: Indi on 9 May 2010 14:13 On 2010-05-09, Michel Talon <talon(a)lpthe.jussieu.fr> wrote: > Indi <indi(a)satcidananda.16x108.merseine.nu> wrote: >> It seems you're very concerned that everyone knows you're not merely >> another user who wants big change, but a Very Important Long Time user >> who wants big change. > > Not at all. I am just one user (of zero importance, i am not a sysadmin > or in a position to impose my choices to anyone, but i pretend to be > extremely well informed) who is being fed up of seeing people giving bad > advice to newbies. I don't want to convert people who are used to > FreeBSD, i am myself using FreeBSD on my desktop, but newbies should not > expect to find something miraculously better with FreeBSD than Ubuntu, > on the contrary there is 90% probability that they will be happier with > Ubuntu. > > I am certainly not the only one with this opinion. Take for example > http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?p=81197 > Another stronghold is lost: > http://blog.hagander.net/archives/16...e-updates.html > " > The biggest change is that we will be moving our services off FreeBSD, > that we use now, onto Debian GNU/Linux. At the same time, we will switch > virtualization solution from FreeBSD Jails to KVM. FreeBSD jails have > served us very well over time, but now that we have access to a well > working KVM product that uses hardware virtualization, the gains of > having full virtualization are much easier to get at. > > One of the main drivers for the change is that maintaining ports-based > installs are just taking way too much time. The new system will be based > heavily around using Debian packages and the apt system, to the point > that everything being installed will always be done using > "meta-packages" that will ensure that all our machines look the same > way. This also plugs into our monitoring systems very well, making > applying (security) updates across the many machines much easier. In > particular, it should get rid of what's sometimes a multi-day operation > to get everything security patched, due to dependencies and the slowness > of updating ports. > > It is quite possible - in fact, I'd say probable - that there are > perfectly fine ways of doing this on FreeBSD. But this outlines another > big reason for this change - it's simply a lot easier to find people who > can do these things on a Linux based system today. Our efforts are > entirely volunteer based, and in the end we just don't have people who > know enough FreeBSD volunteering to do this work. In fact, we have had > several people retire from the sysadmin team over the years specifically > because they refuse to work with FreeBSD. We don't expect this change to > magically create more volunteers, but it will make it easier to recruit > in the future. > " > > Note the argument: "maintaining ports-based installs are just taking way > too much time." This is completely true. > So in other words your argument is "FBSD should change because I'm unable retain qualified sysadmins who can run it efficiently. Other people have also failed to setup FreeBSD systems, so my complaints are valid". :P > >> But frankly, you come off as someone who was doing alright until you >> made the mistake of buying some hardware without checking whether or >> not it was suitable for use with FreeBSD and then you went into tantrum >> mode. > > I doubt very much you can buy a modern laptop which fully works under > FreeBSD. So your argument is complete bullshit. > That is incorrect. As I've already said, my plain old vanilla Dell Inspiron runs FreeBSD without issues. Everything works fine for me... So as I mentioned earlier, the conclusion is that you're simply not very good at setting up FreeBSD. And apparently your ego cannot accept that, so now you come here to troll. > Moreover people expect > to be able to buy a "standard" PC anywhere and run FreeBSD on it. > There is a hardware compatibility list maintained for good reason. I don't doubt there are foolish people who don't bother checking it, but the prevalence of foolishness does not make it less foolish. > This is mostly true for desktops but blatantly false for laptops. It is a > fact, whatever you are saying, that you can run Ubuntu without problem > on basically all desktops and laptops. The probability that it will work > is the same as with Windows. Hence i maintain that hardware support is > poor on FreeBSD, and good in Linux. > There is plenty of concrete evidence to counter your unfounded assertions. Anyone can read the many, many tales of woe on the ubuntu forums. Ubuntu is a very buggy distro. And now if you'll excuse me, I am done with feeding trolls. :) -- Caveat utilitor, indi
From: Balwinder S Dheeman on 9 May 2010 15:12
On 05/09/2010 09:50 PM, Indi wrote: > On 2010-05-09, Michel Talon <talon(a)lpthe.jussieu.fr> wrote: >> Indi <indi(a)satcidananda.16x108.merseine.nu> wrote: >>> >>> Using it as my primary (usually sole) OS since 2004. >> >> Apparently i am beating you, i began using FreeBSD with the 2.2.5 in >> 1997. >> > > It seems you're very concerned that everyone knows you're not merely > another user who wants big change, but a Very Important Long Time user > who wants big change. > > But frankly, you come off as someone who was doing alright until you > made the mistake of buying some hardware without checking whether or > not it was suitable for use with FreeBSD and then you went into tantrum > mode. Or worse, someone just telling stories. > > If you're so happy with Ubuntu, I don't see why you're so determined to > sit around here running down FreeBSD. Makes you look like a troll, > really... Please not, that calling someone, to whom you don't know, merely by guesswork is a sheer foolishness and that too publically. -- Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman Registered Linux User: #229709 Anu'z Linux(a)HOME (Unix Shoppe) Machines: #168573, 170593, 259192 Chandigarh, UT, 160062, India Plan9, T2, Arch/Debian/FreeBSD/XP Home: http://werc.homelinux.net/ Visit: http://counter.li.org/ |