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From: divya_rathore on 25 Feb 2010 00:53 Congratulations, Joe! regards, Divya Rathore www.adislindia.com/people/~divya/index.htm
From: BobF on 25 Feb 2010 08:33 Here's my single biggest problem with forums, unless they've changed drastically in the last year: The forums don't have an elegant way to hide read articles. Take this thread for example. I select 'hide read'. When someone posts to the thread again, I only see the new post(s). In the forum, when a new post appears, I get handed the entire thread to scroll through again just to find, "I agree" at the end. Same with new threads, b/c I can't hide read threads at all. I have to see all of the "headers" all of the time. Next comes speed ... A year or so agree I was dragged into asp.net. Their forum actually had an nntp interface so I at least had a choice about how I wanted to participate. The fact that MS doesn't provide this same two-way interface between nntp and forums can be attributed to nothing more than stubbornness - the desire to effect social engineering via developer communication - to convince us how slick .net is on the web. Well, if the MS dev forums are an example of asp.net capability, no thank you very much!!
From: Stephen Wolstenholme on 25 Feb 2010 09:26 On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:33:50 -0600, BobF <nothanks(a)no.spam> wrote: >Next comes speed ... > >A year or so agree I was dragged into asp.net. Their forum actually had >an nntp interface so I at least had a choice about how I wanted to >participate. The fact that MS doesn't provide this same two-way >interface between nntp and forums can be attributed to nothing more than >stubbornness - the desire to effect social engineering via developer >communication - to convince us how slick .net is on the web. Well, if >the MS dev forums are an example of asp.net capability, no thank you >very much!! Speed is the big problem with web forums. Two years ago I was involved with a similar discussion to this one. I claimed I could keep up with subscribed newsgroups about a hundred times faster than the equivalent number of web forums. I was challenged to prove it. I subscribe to 160 newsgroups using Agent. I checked them all for changes, read and responded as needed. It took 35 minutes. I then attempted to just check some forums for changes. After 40 minutes I had only checked about 20 forums for changes. That's new just new messages, no reading and no updating. Steve -- Neural Planner Software Ltd www.NPSL1.com Neural network applications, help and support.
From: Joseph M. Newcomer on 25 Feb 2010 13:44 My point exactly. Presentation and filtering are crucial aspects of the interface, and these have been ignored because of the childish approach to the interface. Speed is part of the interface. (Al Newell once told me, "when building an interactive system, the only important criterion is response time. Everything else is secondary." He told me this after I had once crafted an interactive system what was too slow to be usable. I learned. Microsoft either hasn't, or chose to ignore the fact so they could trun out something quick&dirty that gave an imitation impression of being usable. Another principle: scale matters. If my forum gets four posts a day, any interface, no matter how crappy, will work. If it gets 400, I *need* a superb interface. [I once was part of a "user study" in which we were asked to search email in certain ways and do certain specific operations on the email. What I did with 32 messages in the mailbox is quite different from what I did in my own mailbox, that had 3,000. And at each step, I'd say "Well, because this is a trivial mailbox, completely unlike real ones, I will do <this>. But I couldn't do that in my own mailbox, so this experiment is not a valid measure of how to use email systems". Essentially, I was telling them that their study was so flawed as to be irrelevant to real life, and COULD NOT be used to either evaluate features for their utility or suggest what features would be required in a new email system, both of which were goals of the study] joe On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:33:50 -0600, BobF <nothanks(a)no.spam> wrote: >Here's my single biggest problem with forums, unless they've changed >drastically in the last year: > >The forums don't have an elegant way to hide read articles. Take this >thread for example. > >I select 'hide read'. When someone posts to the thread again, I only >see the new post(s). > >In the forum, when a new post appears, I get handed the entire thread to > scroll through again just to find, "I agree" at the end. > >Same with new threads, b/c I can't hide read threads at all. I have to >see all of the "headers" all of the time. > >Next comes speed ... > >A year or so agree I was dragged into asp.net. Their forum actually had >an nntp interface so I at least had a choice about how I wanted to >participate. The fact that MS doesn't provide this same two-way >interface between nntp and forums can be attributed to nothing more than >stubbornness - the desire to effect social engineering via developer >communication - to convince us how slick .net is on the web. Well, if >the MS dev forums are an example of asp.net capability, no thank you >very much!! Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP] email: newcomer(a)flounder.com Web: http://www.flounder.com MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
From: James Juno on 25 Feb 2010 14:58
Your post hits the nail on the head. I've been fanatical about UI responsiveness for many years, through several companies and now in my own shop. It's one of the reasons I quickly dismissed .NET for any serious UI work (this was several years ago -- I have no idea how well the managed paradigm performs now nor do I care -- I'm an old codger locked in his ways). Just the startup time for even the simplest of the .NET samples was horrible. I remember colleagues being delighted with the new language and "my god the programming tools are manna from heaven," but I held steadfast to my belief that none of that matters one wit to the user who, whether he knows it or not, expects things to get done RIGHT NOW, from program start-up to its use to its shutdown. I won't bother expressing my feelings toward these so-called browser-based apps. -JJ "Joseph M. Newcomer" <newcomer(a)flounder.com> wrote in message news:1tgdo5d3r0dl9mkbf5rf4e2t90t4eha7os(a)4ax.com... > My point exactly. Presentation and filtering are crucial aspects of the > interface, and > these have been ignored because of the childish approach to the interface. > > Speed is part of the interface. (Al Newell once told me, "when building > an interactive > system, the only important criterion is response time. Everything else is > secondary." He > told me this after I had once crafted an interactive system what was too > slow to be > usable. I learned. Microsoft either hasn't, or chose to ignore the fact > so they could > trun out something quick&dirty that gave an imitation impression of being > usable. > > Another principle: scale matters. If my forum gets four posts a day, any > interface, no > matter how crappy, will work. If it gets 400, I *need* a superb > interface. > > [I once was part of a "user study" in which we were asked to search email > in certain ways > and do certain specific operations on the email. What I did with 32 > messages in the > mailbox is quite different from what I did in my own mailbox, that had > 3,000. And at each > step, I'd say "Well, because this is a trivial mailbox, completely unlike > real ones, I > will do <this>. But I couldn't do that in my own mailbox, so this > experiment is not a > valid measure of how to use email systems". Essentially, I was telling > them that their > study was so flawed as to be irrelevant to real life, and COULD NOT be > used to either > evaluate features for their utility or suggest what features would be > required in a new > email system, both of which were goals of the study] > joe > > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:33:50 -0600, BobF <nothanks(a)no.spam> wrote: > >>Here's my single biggest problem with forums, unless they've changed >>drastically in the last year: >> >>The forums don't have an elegant way to hide read articles. Take this >>thread for example. >> >>I select 'hide read'. When someone posts to the thread again, I only >>see the new post(s). >> >>In the forum, when a new post appears, I get handed the entire thread to >> scroll through again just to find, "I agree" at the end. >> >>Same with new threads, b/c I can't hide read threads at all. I have to >>see all of the "headers" all of the time. >> >>Next comes speed ... >> >>A year or so agree I was dragged into asp.net. Their forum actually had >>an nntp interface so I at least had a choice about how I wanted to >>participate. The fact that MS doesn't provide this same two-way >>interface between nntp and forums can be attributed to nothing more than >>stubbornness - the desire to effect social engineering via developer >>communication - to convince us how slick .net is on the web. Well, if >>the MS dev forums are an example of asp.net capability, no thank you >>very much!! > Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP] > email: newcomer(a)flounder.com > Web: http://www.flounder.com > MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm |