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From: Bill Graham on 13 Feb 2010 23:20 "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message news:2010021316481660903-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom... > On 2010-02-13 14:45:15 -0800, "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> said: > >> >> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message >> news:4b771f5e$0$22474$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com... >>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message >>> news:1OKdnb_9-t7IhOrWnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d(a)giganews.com... >>>> >>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message >>>> news:4b77170d$0$21958$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com... >>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message >>>>> news:6dOdnR7OKchgiOrWnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d(a)giganews.com... >>>>>> >>>>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message >>>>>> news:4b76b7b2$0$18772$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com... >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We agree on something. Remember Bill votes his for pocketbook, not >>>>>>> humanity. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes.....I am very uncomfortable when politicians have their hands in >>>>>> my pockets........Just because Robin Hood gave money to the poor, >>>>>> that doesn't prevent me from calling him a thief. >>>>> >>>>> Are you saying you receive no benefit from being a member of our >>>>> society? >>>>> Please clarify. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Peter >>>> >>>> Will do. At 10% government, society is great, At 20% government it's >>>> still not too bad, but a bit less than "great" and at 50% government it >>>> is oppressive, way to socialistic, and a long, long way from being >>>> great. - We passed the 50% mark some time ago, and with Obama/Pelosi, >>>> we are fast heading to 60% and above. >>> >>> >>> So you want the benefits without paying for them. I get it, you should >>> only pay for the direct benefits you think you need. Not to help society >>> as a whole. >>> >>> Just start with a few common costs. Since you know how much to spend, >>> why don't you fill in the blanks. >>> >>> Military: = ? >>> Education = ? >>> Domestic security protection = ? >>> Road maintenance = ? >>> Court system = ? >>> Helping our genuinely indigent to survive = ? >>> >>> Come on Billy boy, you have investments. What is the cost of the >>> government helping to maintain the integrity of your money. >>> >>> If you expect the benefits of living in our society without paying for >>> them, you are a worse thief than Robin Hood. >>> >>> -- >>> Peter >> >> Well, the problem (as I see it) seems to be in the definition of, >> "Benefits" If you live in a padded cell, and the government does >> (literally) everything for you, then Peter would say life is perfect, and >> we owe everything to our government. Bill would say we are all slaves to >> our government and they are of no more use to us that any slave driver is >> to his property. >> >> In the above example, I think the government's use should fall somewhere >> less than 20% of our gross effort, and you seem to think that it should >> fall somewhere over 50% of our gross effort. >> >> So, the lines are drawn, and all we have to do is argue over where they >> should be. >> >> My argument for my position on the matter is that the more I do for >> myself, the more freedom I enjoy. You position is the more the government >> does for us, the easier life will be for the most people. I don't count >> living in a padded cell as, "life". I want a little more than just >> breathing. But, to each his own....... > > Bill, > The time has come for you to come out of retirement and join the Palin > team. Who knows, you might make a fine Palin Party, Secretary of The > Treasury, or Vice President? > If you remember to bring a Sharpie you could be one of her speech writers. > > ...and I am sure she will have all your health needs covered. > -- > Regards, > > Savageduck > I already have all of my health needs covered, thank you. As well as all the other domestic needs. I don't need the government taking care of me here on the home front....All I expect them to do is keep our enemies away from me, but I am afraid that they are having a lot of trouble even doing that one simple thing. That's because they are a bunch of f*** ups. A problem that I can only hope will be corrected in November of 2012. - I hope that won't be too late......
From: Bill Graham on 13 Feb 2010 23:38 "C J Campbell" <christophercampbellremovethis(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:2010021316512875249-christophercampbellremovethis(a)hotmailcom... >> The US is like that neighbor down the road with the great house, country >> place, 3 luxury cars, a boat (big), country club members, etc, etc. but >> who are running the whole thing on massive debt. It is unsustainable. A >> fire sale will ensue. This remends me of the story of the guy who is talking to his psychaitrist: P: Well, tell me about your week....What do you do? Guy: Well, on Mondays, I usually go out to the airport and check out my plane. My mechanic and I give it the old, "once-over" and make sure it is ready for a spin. Then later in the day, the wife and I usually fly up to the mountains and spend the evening watching the skiers come in from the slopes and talk to them around the fire..... On Tuesday, after flying back home, I usually go fishing from the yacht, and bring home a sailfish or two for our cook to play with. On wednesday, I play golf with my wife's brother and his friends. We usually tee off about 10 AM, and sometimes we do a second round.....Depends on the wether, and how I feel. Thursdays, I drive the Ferrari up to the wine country and do a little tasting.....I usually take my daughter with me to drive me home in case I'm a little tipsey. On Thursday evening the wife and I go out to dinner with her parents. On Friday's I usually run the horses a couple of times around the track and talk to my livery guy about which ones to enter in the weekend races.... P: Well, it sounds like you've got it altogether to me.....So what's the problem? Guy: - I only make $400 a week........
From: Bill Graham on 14 Feb 2010 00:01 "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message news:4b774ccb$2$18835$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com... > "tony cooper" <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:76een5d7ggj1bc5q6rn9pdjt3q035uflbo(a)4ax.com... >> On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 14:06:24 -0800, J�rgen Exner >> <jurgenex(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>>C J Campbell <christophercampbellremovethis(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>On 2010-02-11 23:39:37 -0800, "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> said: >>> >>>[replying to C J's posting because Bill has been in my killfile for a >>>long time. And obviously for very good reasons, see below] >>> >>>>> "J�rgen Exner" <jurgenex(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >>>>>> C J Campbell <christophercampbellremovethis(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>> And wouldn't Bill Gates love a sales tax...... >>> >>>He happens to be living in Bellevue, WA, USA, which happens to have >>>about 8% sales tax (plus probably a few percent slapped on by King >>>County and the city of Bellevue). >>> >>>>>He wouldn't spend any >>>>> more than he does now, but his investments would make billions of >>>>> dollars every year, and it would all be tax free., Talk about a >>>>> regressive tax system..... >>> >>>??? >>>What does income tax have to do with the difference between sales tax >>>and VAT? Are you tossing red herrings around again? >>> >> He's referring to the "FairTax" movement. It replaces the income tax >> with a consumption tax on retail sales (essentially, a "sales tax") >> with a rebate to taxpayers with incomes below a certain level. There >> are some advantages to the proposal, but it stands little chance of >> advancing. >> >> There's more to it than I've outlined above. >> > > > Yup! Lots more. there are a lot of advantages, but it cannot sell > politically. > > -- > Peter I don't know why not.....Our government is run by lawyers, and this is the greatest boon to hit the lawyer business in my lifetime. A hundred years of tax court litigation thrown out the window so the lawyers can do it all over again.
From: Bill Graham on 14 Feb 2010 00:10 "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message news:4b774ccb$3$18835$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com... > "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message > news:2010021316481660903-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom... >> On 2010-02-13 14:45:15 -0800, "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> said: >> >>> >>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message >>> news:4b771f5e$0$22474$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com... >>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message >>>> news:1OKdnb_9-t7IhOrWnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d(a)giganews.com... >>>>> >>>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message >>>>> news:4b77170d$0$21958$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com... >>>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message >>>>>> news:6dOdnR7OKchgiOrWnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d(a)giganews.com... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message >>>>>>> news:4b76b7b2$0$18772$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com... >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We agree on something. Remember Bill votes his for pocketbook, not >>>>>>>> humanity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes.....I am very uncomfortable when politicians have their hands in >>>>>>> my pockets........Just because Robin Hood gave money to the poor, >>>>>>> that doesn't prevent me from calling him a thief. >>>>>> >>>>>> Are you saying you receive no benefit from being a member of our >>>>>> society? >>>>>> Please clarify. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> Will do. At 10% government, society is great, At 20% government it's >>>>> still not too bad, but a bit less than "great" and at 50% government >>>>> it is oppressive, way to socialistic, and a long, long way from being >>>>> great. - We passed the 50% mark some time ago, and with Obama/Pelosi, >>>>> we are fast heading to 60% and above. >>>> >>>> >>>> So you want the benefits without paying for them. I get it, you should >>>> only pay for the direct benefits you think you need. Not to help >>>> society as a whole. >>>> >>>> Just start with a few common costs. Since you know how much to spend, >>>> why don't you fill in the blanks. >>>> >>>> Military: = ? >>>> Education = ? >>>> Domestic security protection = ? >>>> Road maintenance = ? >>>> Court system = ? >>>> Helping our genuinely indigent to survive = ? >>>> >>>> Come on Billy boy, you have investments. What is the cost of the >>>> government helping to maintain the integrity of your money. >>>> >>>> If you expect the benefits of living in our society without paying for >>>> them, you are a worse thief than Robin Hood. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Peter >>> >>> Well, the problem (as I see it) seems to be in the definition of, >>> "Benefits" If you live in a padded cell, and the government does >>> (literally) everything for you, then Peter would say life is perfect, >>> and we owe everything to our government. Bill would say we are all >>> slaves to our government and they are of no more use to us that any >>> slave driver is to his property. >>> >>> In the above example, I think the government's use should fall somewhere >>> less than 20% of our gross effort, and you seem to think that it should >>> fall somewhere over 50% of our gross effort. >>> >>> So, the lines are drawn, and all we have to do is argue over where they >>> should be. >>> >>> My argument for my position on the matter is that the more I do for >>> myself, the more freedom I enjoy. You position is the more the >>> government does for us, the easier life will be for the most people. I >>> don't count living in a padded cell as, "life". I want a little more >>> than just breathing. But, to each his own....... >> >> Bill, >> The time has come for you to come out of retirement and join the Palin >> team. Who knows, you might make a fine Palin Party, Secretary of The >> Treasury, or Vice President? >> If you remember to bring a Sharpie you could be one of her speech >> writers. >> >> ...and I am sure she will have all your health needs covered. > > > If the government spending was at the level he claims to want, he will be > very busy: Digging holes to safeguard his money; target practice; worrying > whether his doctor really had a medical license; whether his > grandchildren's teachers were competent to teach; growing his own food > because of worry about adulterating substances; etc. > > > -- > Peter Funny......I am worried about all of these things right now, in spite of the fact that we are paying over 50% of our incomes in taxes. That's because the government just steals our money and gives us nothing for it. Have you checked out the basket weavers they are graduating from college nowadays? And when was the last time there was a scare about foreign canned goods, or unsafe toys? How many illegal aliens are we supporting nowadays? 20 million? 25 million? good God, man, there are only about 100 million heads of households in this country. What, exactly is your government doing with your tax dollars? And they are borrowing trillions from China to cover their expenditures.....Doesn't this bother you at all? Why don't you wake up?
From: Bill Graham on 14 Feb 2010 00:14
"C J Campbell" <christophercampbellremovethis(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:2010021317123450073-christophercampbellremovethis(a)hotmailcom... > On 2010-02-13 14:51:05 -0800, "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> said: > >> >> "J�rgen Exner" <jurgenex(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >> news:998en51h0hgpk7isf3icl3747jojn8bmlp(a)4ax.com... >>> C J Campbell <christophercampbellremovethis(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> On 2010-02-11 23:39:37 -0800, "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> said: >>> >>> [replying to C J's posting because Bill has been in my killfile for a >>> long time. And obviously for very good reasons, see below] >>> >>>>> "J�rgen Exner" <jurgenex(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >>>>>> C J Campbell <christophercampbellremovethis(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>> And wouldn't Bill Gates love a sales tax...... >>> >>> He happens to be living in Bellevue, WA, USA, which happens to have >>> about 8% sales tax (plus probably a few percent slapped on by King >>> County and the city of Bellevue). >>> >>>>> He wouldn't spend any >>>>> more than he does now, but his investments would make billions of >>>>> dollars every year, and it would all be tax free., Talk about a >>>>> regressive tax system..... >>> >>> ??? >>> What does income tax have to do with the difference between sales tax >>> and VAT? Are you tossing red herrings around again? >>> >>> jue >> >> I am talking about the new "progressive" idea of replacing the income tax >> with a national sales tax. The super rich would make out like bandits, >> since they have the bulk of their money invested, and spend only a small >> fraction of their incomes. But people like me, who are retired, and spend >> everything we get on our living expenses would be paying for all the >> costs of the society. > > Why do I get the feeling you do not know the difference between a > progressive and a regressive tax? These are distinct economic terms that > have nothing to do with whether a tax is "good" or "bad;" they just > describe the manner of taxation. "Progressive" taxes collect a higher > percentage of income as income goes up. "Regressive" taxes collect a > higher percentage of income as income goes down. "Neutral" taxes collect > the same percentage of income from everybody. > > Sales and VAT taxes are called regressive because people with lower > incomes tend to spend a greater percentage of their income than people > with higher incomes who tend to save and invest. Sales and VAT taxes are > ultimately dependent on sales. The poor spend a higher percentage of their > income on sales and VAT taxes than do the rich. For this reason it is > common (but by no means universal) to mitigate the adverse effects of > these taxes on the poor by exempting certain necessities, such as food and > drugs. > > Income taxes are supposed to be either neutral or progressive -- the poor > pay a lower rate than the rich. In practice, however, you cannot make > income taxes too high or the rich will take steps to shield their incomes > from taxation -- as in the extreme example of Sweden. Another extreme > example is the United States, which has one of the highest corporate > income tax rates in the world, resulting in many US corporations to move > as much of their operations as possible to friendlier tax climes. Thus the > rich can afford to escape taxation, leaving the poor to pay taxes. A > nominally progressive tax system turns into a regressive one. > > From what I can see here, most of the people arguing about this subject > have probably never taken a basic course in economics in their entire > lives. Either that, or they forgot everything they ever learned. > Well, regardless of what you call it, can you see that replacing the income tax with a sales tax would be a boon to those of us who invest most of our incomes, and a blow to those of us who have to spend everything we make in order to live? |