From: John Bokma on
Emile van Sebille <emile(a)fenx.com> writes:

> On 6/3/2010 10:41 PM Steven D'Aprano said...
>> On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 06:15:20 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>>> Most people use this list via e-mail,
>>
>> How do you know? Do you have evidence for this, or are you just making it
>> up?
>>
>
> Is there now a non-email method of posting to this list?

No idea what "this list" is, but I am reading your message in Gnus via Usenet.

--
John Bokma j3b

Hacking & Hiking in Mexico - http://johnbokma.com/
http://castleamber.com/ - Perl & Python Development
From: Andreas Waldenburger on
On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:36:02 +0200 "Alf P. Steinbach" <alfps(a)start.no>
wrote:

> * Andreas Waldenburger, on 04.06.2010 20:21:
> > On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 00:57:15 +1000 Ben Finney
> > <ben+python(a)benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> >
> >> Andreas Waldenburger<usenot(a)geekmail.INVALID> writes:
> >>
> >>> But consolidation is the *only* way to go, really. The parallelism
> >>> between c.l.p. and python-list is great already. Now throw some
> >>> sort of Forum in the mix
> >>
> >> This already *is* a forum. Whatever it is you think is needed, it's
> >> already a forum. Can you be more specific about what you would add?
> >>
> >
> > I meant a web forum.
>
> You can access [comp.lang.python] via Google Groups and other web
> based interfaces.
>
> So it already is a web forum.
>
Huh. I've never looked at it that way.

OK, then. Forget what I said about Wave. Oh, you have? Good.

;)
/W

--
INVALID? DE!

From: Emile van Sebille on
On 6/4/2010 11:27 AM Terry Reedy said...
> On 6/4/2010 12:28 PM, Emile van Sebille wrote:
>
>> Is there now a non-email method of posting to this list?
>
> Google <==> comp.lang.python <==> python-list <==>
> gmane.comp.python.general
>
> where <==> is a bi-directional gateway.

Yes -- I use gmane as well. But, IIRC, I needed to be on the mail list
in order for my responses to show up because MailMan is the primary back
end and I thought it's set to only accept posts from members.

Hence, my question. Aren't we all members posting (ultimately)
exclusively through email regardless of preferred reading interfaces?

Emile

From: Alf P. Steinbach on
* John Bokma, on 04.06.2010 20:19:
> Steven D'Aprano<steve(a)REMOVE-THIS-cybersource.com.au> writes:
>
>> But the really sad thing is that you think that "bigger" automatically
>> equals "better".
>
> I don't think that was the point.
>
> Anyway, not everbody can pick a provider, there are plenty of places
> that have only one or maybe two. And if that's the choice and neither
> carries Usenet you have to pay for Usenet like I do. Note that I
> consider it well worth the 10 euros I pay for it.
>
> To me, it looks like the use of Usenet for text is on the
> decline. I've been away from Usenet for like a year or so and could see
> quite a difference. More and more ISPs in my experience are dropping
> Usenet from their services. Mind, I think that the number of users on
> Usenet (text only) still exceeds the number when I first used Usenet
> (back in the early 90's). But usage is on the decline as far as I can
> tell. On top of that I see people I know from Usenet now quite active on
> Stack Overflow and sister sites.
>
> Finally, I have to disagree with your disagreement (which is just a
> personal experience) based on my personal experience: it's harder to
> find an ISP that carries Usenet. And I have experience with, oh, just 3
> countries where I have been living in for the past 10 years.

True.

While Usenet traffic is still exponentially increasing, most of that's in binary
groups, and it's spam.

I think much of the decline of Usenet is correlated with an increase of laws
designed to limit free speech and support all kinds surveillance. It started, as
I see it, back in the early 90's with Playboy attempting to sue anyone who used
the Lena picture in photo processing tests etc. (it's the standard image for
that). They failed in that particular endeavour, but did succeed in shutting
down thousands of sites worldwide displaying Playboy pictures. The Church of
Scientology picked up on the idea that a private company can /control/ net
content worldwide by way of laws designed for other things. The record and movie
industry caught on to this. Governments of some special countries such China,
Saudi-Arabia and Iran, plus, very suprising to me, Australia, caught on to it,
that is, the idea of controlling net content, or at least access to that
content. Then finally George W. Bush caught on to it, and with American ISPs
legally responsible for the content of the traffic, well, the following from
Wikipedia isn't quite chronological but is quite clear:


<quote src="The Wikipedia article about Usenet">
In 2008, Verizon Communications, Time Warner Cable and Sprint Nextel signed an
agreement with Attorney General of New York Andrew Cuomo to shut down access to
sources of child pornography.[31] Time Warner Cable stopped offering access to
Usenet. Verizon reduced its access to the "Big 8" hierarchies. Sprint stopped
access to the alt.* hierarchies. AT&T stopped access to the alt.binaries.*
hierarchies. Cuomo never specifically named Usenet in his anti-child pornography
campaign. David DeJean of PC World said that some worry that the ISPs used
Cuomo's campaign as an excuse to end portions of Usenet access, as it is costly
for the internet service providers. In 2008 AOL, which no longer offered Usenet
access, and the four providers that responded to the Cuomo campaign were the
five largest internet service providers in the United States; they had more than
50% of the U.S. ISP marketshare.[32] On June 8, 2009, AT&T announced that it
would no longer provide access to the Usenet service as of July 15, 2009.[33]

AOL announced that it would discontinue its integrated Usenet service in early
2005, citing the growing popularity of weblogs, chat forums and on-line
conferencing.[34] The AOL community had a tremendous role in popularizing Usenet
some 11 years earlier,[citation needed] with all of its positive and negative
aspects. This change marked the end of the legendary Eternal September. Others,
however, feel that Google Groups, especially with its new user interface, has
picked up the torch that AOL has dropped�and that the so-called Eternal
September has yet to end.[citation needed]

In August, 2009, Verizon announced that it would discontinue access to Usenet on
September 30, 2009.[35][36]

In April 2010, Cox Communications announced (via email) that it would
discontinue Usenet service, effective June 30, 2010. JANET(UK) announced it will
discontinue Usenet service, effective July 31, 2010, citing Google Groups as an
alternative.[37] Microsoft announced that it would discontinue support for it's
public newsgroups (msnews.microsoft.com) from June 1, 2010, offering web forums
as an alternative.
</quote>


In short, in the future you will no longer be able to access old articles via
archives such as Google Groups (Google picked up that archive from Deja News).

Until some replacement for Usenet appears, online discussion will in general be
effectively /local/, unknown to all but the parties currently using a given web
forum, and it will in general not be archived.

As I see it, those who have made and continue to make the decisions to make it
that way, want it that way.


Cheers,

- Alf

--
blog at <url: http://alfps.wordpress.com>
From: Lie Ryan on
On 06/04/10 11:56, John Bokma wrote:
> Phlip <phlip2005(a)gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Jun 3, 3:20 pm, geremy condra <debat...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> You mean like how I never get answers, to my super-easy GED-level
>>>> questions, here??!
>>>
>>> I agree. This proves conclusively that a web forum is the right
>>> place for you.
>>
>> Ah, so you feel up to my "xsl for xmlrunner.py" question?
>
> Just jumping in the middle, but if you're looking for a web based forum
> where you can ask questions, check out Stack Overflow (and sister sites,
> depending on your question). I've noticed over the last couple of months
> that often things I google for, are answered on Stack Overflow. One
> thing that would've been nice to have on Usenet that I like is the
> ability to vote answers up or down. I think Usenet would've been a bit
> better with that option.

Probably. A vote up/down feature tend to highlight popular problems, but
it also buries less popular problems that might have perfectly good
answers. I think Google Groups have 5-star-rating system? You might want
to check on that.
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