From: Arny Krueger on 29 Nov 2008 10:40
"George's Pro Sound Company" <bmoas(a)yahoo.com> wrote in
> but to design a 24 ch desk the REQUIRES 3 phase to even
> turn it on for the USA tour market is a bonehead blunder
> that would instantly make the product unsellable to the
Given that Yamaha seems to have been able to build 32-56 channel digital
consoles that run on 200 watts or less of 120 VAC for several years now...
From: gwatts on 29 Nov 2008 11:13
George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
> "gwatts" <gwatts(a)frontiernet.net> wrote in message
>> Eeyore wrote:
>>> liquidator wrote:
>>>> 240 in the US is generally for stationary appliances, which a mixer is
>>> Is there anything stopping you using 240V for non-stationary applications
>>> than inertia ?
>> No, it's actually done all the time, just not usually in the home.
>> The place I work has test equipment, pumps, compressors, welders, etc that
>> all are portable and run on 240. All the floor maintenance equipment is
>> 240, and anything in the machine shop that you don't pick up to use is 240
>> and cabled as portable because they reconfigure frequently for special
>> Where I used to work we had the Midas house and monitor consoles on 240
> and were these 24 ch desks designed for smaller venues?
No, FOH was 40 and monitors was 28, and they were shoehorned in to a few
I find it amazing that Cadac would be serious about touring with bands.
I was in on a couple of load ins for touring, off-Broadway shows and
the Cadacs I saw were huge, heavy things (even compared to a Midas) and
took quite a while to get from the dock to FOH.
>> with all the other signal processing gear on 120. We gave a visiting Oz
>> engineer 240 for his racks a few times, he was pleasantly surprised.
> and how did you address the 50/60hz issues?
He wasn't worried. It was all analog signal processing, I think he was
happy he didn't have to crawl into his rack and flip all the 110/220
> If I was doing 200,000 people in stadiums perhaps I might have diffrent
> but to design a 24 ch desk the REQUIRES 3 phase to even turn it on for the
> USA tour market is a bonehead blunder that would instantly make the product
> unsellable to the USA
From: Eeyore on 29 Nov 2008 11:58
> Eeyore wrote:
> > George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
> >> normally there are no connecters, everything is a hard tie in beytween
> >> me and the venue
> > Totally avoidable with IEC 60309 connectors.
> > http://www.mkelectric.co.uk/PDF/technical/COMMANDO_prod.pdf
> > Impossible to mis-mate different voltages. Available in splashproof and
> > watertight version. Single and 3 phase.
> and godawful expensive.
Think of the time saving though ! Time = money. And 30kW on ONE single phase
> We use tails tied in to a disconnect switch a/k/a 'Company box' and
> occasionally camlocks because that's what the insurance companies let us
> do in the delicate balance between safety and cost. It takes about 15
> minutes to tie in tails and usually the promoter pays an electrician to
> do it. I check voltages before I switch on and it works just fine.
Presumably another 15 mins to disconnect ? There was a LOVELY story in LIVE
magazine once in the 'up the truss' section about leaving live tails because
the electricians had gone walkabout ! I may even be able to find it again.
> Red Rocks Amphitheater west of Denver has camlocks at switches in the
> wings, and more than just a few-100 amps available. We had power to our
> motors before the first truck was half unloaded and left the power
> feeder on the reel.
> > Note the 240V 125A connector ( 30 kW).
> If I had a big, portable distribution panel that I frequently hauled out
> into a hotel ballroom or convention hall I could see using an IEC60309,
> and I've seen a few of 'em in the US, but they usually have an adapter
> that ends in camlocks, if they don't have camlocks in the first place.
Well, being an International Standard, I can only see them being used more
and more and getting less expensive. Speakons cost a fortune when they came
out too. And even XLRs.
From: Eeyore on 29 Nov 2008 12:00
George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
> "gwatts" <gwatts(a)frontiernet.net> wrote
> > If I had a big, portable distribution panel that I frequently hauled out
> > into a hotel ballroom or convention hall I could see using an IEC60309,
> > and I've seen a few of 'em in the US, but they usually have an adapter
> > that ends in camlocks, if they don't have camlocks in the first place.
> Camlocs and tails is how its done. from county fairs to festivals to one off
> at the college multi use room
> if you want to recreate the world eyesore be at it
> but your tilting at windmills, as is par for the course with you
George doesn't apparently understand the power of International Standards. Even
UL is having to bend.
From: liquidator on 29 Nov 2008 12:02
"George's Pro Sound Company" <bmoas(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
> "liquidator" <mikeh(a)mad.scientist.com> wrote in message
> > "gwatts" <gwatts(a)frontiernet.net> wrote in message
> > news:2ecYk.3846$5L3.998(a)newsfe09.iad...
> >> Eeyore wrote:
> >> >
> >> > George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
> >> ...
> >> >>
> >> >> when i spec show power it is in terms of total amps
> >> >
> >> > POWER is measured in WATTS !
> >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics)
> >> 'Power' in American slang, given the context, means 'Electrical Mains
> >> Service'. You say 'service' to an American electrician in a backstage
> >> context and he might punch you. Well, statistically 90% might punch
> > Alright- I give you a star on that one. That took a brain to write,
> > enjoyed
> > it.
> Mr. Liquidator
> may I suggest you killfile eyesore
> he does not post anything of substance anyway plus his view of the world
> revolves around one shitty little club that plays clone acts
> one step away from karoke
> hardly a live sound pros job
Graham isn't stupid...just can't see the forest for the trees.
He hasn't done much touring- I probably did more in one year than he has his
The major problem is he confuses possible and practical...
If I have to carry cable to run 240 to mix position, it is one more thing
to go wrong...Touring systems , properly designed, eliminate extraneous
Water coolers are available. Should I bring one for a mix position? Not
necessary, therefore not generally done.
A 240 volt mixer isn't necessary either.
I could easily fill a special request for a 240 rack. it costs extra. All
unnecessary work is eliminated, any extra work is charged for. It's called
Graham is an amateur, and loses sight of that. What you do in a small pub
somewhere isn't the same thing you do when hauling tons of gear about the
country. What your power amps weigh for instance...when carting 50 to 100
amps that becomes significant indeed. An amp can weigh a thousand pounds if
it sits still.
Graham loses sight of all this and tries to advocate "one size fits all".
To make matters worse, it's his size.
The gwatts chimes in with..."wow man. I've got 240. Give me another hit
And he wonders why he's received with disdain.
Here's a summary of Graham's position...
"In a few years the US will suddenly change to 240. Even though it isn't
being considered and isn't necessary.
Cadac, long struggling, will then become the dominant manufacturer since
they have the only small 240 volt console readily available for the US tour
However. it will be analog, since it sounds better, and analog will still be
the dominant console then."
Plain and simple, the US will still be low voltage, Cdac will be small if
they survive, and digital will dominate more and more.